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Old 12-26-2019, 06:47 PM   #20001 (permalink)
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I agree with you to a certain extent but sexual harassment and sex crimes would exist with or without capitalism and so both must be dealt with on their own terms, but the combination of the two must definitely be considered because they overlap heavily. I think your position is basically frustrated that the two are dealt with in a way that demonizes sexual harassment and sex crimes but gives capitalism an eternal pass, but you can still be open to hating both together and separately.
You nailed it here. It just annoys me that almost nobody gets what you’re saying.
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Old 12-26-2019, 06:49 PM   #20002 (permalink)
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Well if I'm underestimating it then there must be statistics you're aware of on this or we're both just guessing. I'm just guessing. I'm sure it's a thing but I'm just dubious that it's a thing to use to attack porn as a hole. Heh.



I agree with you to a certain extent but sexual harassment and sex crimes would exist with or without capitalism and so both must be dealt with on their own terms, but the combination of the two must definitely be considered because they overlap heavily. I think your position is basically frustrated that the two are dealt with in a way that demonizes sexual harassment and sex crimes but gives capitalism an eternal pass, but you can still be open to hating both together and separately.



I'm really not trying to white knight priests and religion but I think the general perception that the priesthood attracts pedophiles is based on the reporting of pedophiles in the Catholic Church, which is really more based on the the Catholic Church covering up crimes from the top which feels like a betrayal of what people think religion should stand for and so it gets coverage in the same way that political corruption does. You'd need to look up actual statistics on priesthood pedophilia rates vs. rates of pedophilia in the general population to make the statement you're making though I'm not arguing that it would come up 50/50.
I don't think there is a proper statistic on this yet. Just as there isn't a proper statistic on sex trafficking, though there are better statistics on that. This is kind of a new thing that we are discovering.

I really don't want to do research on a half-cocked point when it's not really a hill I'm willing to die on.
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Old 12-26-2019, 06:52 PM   #20003 (permalink)
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You nailed it here. It just annoys me that almost nobody gets what you’re saying.
Capitalism created Epstien. I don't know if that's the conclusion you wanted me to come to but that's kind of been something on my mind lately. Espstien only thrived as a child sex trafficker because capitalism put him in that position and gave him that power.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 12-26-2019, 07:01 PM   #20004 (permalink)
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Capitalism created Epstien. I don't know if that's the conclusion you wanted me to come to but that's kind of been something on my mind lately. Espstien only thrived as a child sex trafficker because capitalism put him in that position and gave him that power.
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Old 12-26-2019, 07:02 PM   #20005 (permalink)
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Capitalism created Epstien. I don't know if that's the conclusion you wanted me to come to but that's kind of been something on my mind lately. Espstien only thrived as a child sex trafficker because capitalism put him in that position and gave him that power.
I could be wrong but I read it as him saying other forms of exploitation (such as of workers) are just as bad as explicitly sexual exploitation.
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Old 12-26-2019, 07:27 PM   #20006 (permalink)
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I can only imagine what a Christian shill I would be called if I had posted this
I'm still thoroughly willing to shoot the Pope in the head for doing nothing about this but the question is whether priests have a higher pedo percentage than the general populace and a good way to at least approach this would be to look at the rate of pedophilia in religious leaders in Protestantism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and any other religion that doesn't have a centralized leadership to cover up pedophilia.

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I don't think there is a proper statistic on this yet. Just as there isn't a proper statistic on sex trafficking, though there are better statistics on that. This is kind of a new thing that we are discovering.

I really don't want to do research on a half-cocked point when it's not really a hill I'm willing to die on.
I imagine there are statistics out there that we're too lazy to look up, which is kind of the point. You need to at least try to look up the literature on the subject to make informed statements.

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Capitalism created Epstien. I don't know if that's the conclusion you wanted me to come to but that's kind of been something on my mind lately. Espstien only thrived as a child sex trafficker because capitalism put him in that position and gave him that power.
Epstein could have and I'm sure did exist in any form of government/economics throughout history. It wasn't capitalism that covered up his crimes, it was powerful people. Or to be more specific, capitalism covered up his crimes in the same way any other form of government/economics would have covered up his crimes.

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I could be wrong but I read it as him saying other forms of exploitation (such as of workers) are just as bad as explicitly sexual exploitation.
I'm not gonna try to put words into OH's mouth but what I imagine he would try to say if he was as smart as I am is that exploitation of workers applies to exploitation of sex workers as well, and exploitation of workers can be both sexual and non-sexual and both are based on the power dynamics of capitalism and you can't solve either exploitation or sexual exploitation in capitalism without solving the inherent problems in the power dynamics of capitalism that will exist so long as capitalism exists.
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Old 12-26-2019, 07:42 PM   #20007 (permalink)
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I'm still thoroughly willing to shoot the Pope in the head for doing nothing about this but the question is whether priests have a higher pedo percentage than the general populace and a good way to at least approach this would be to look at the rate of pedophilia in religious leaders in Protestantism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and any other religion that doesn't have a centralized leadership to cover up pedophilia.
I completely understood your point and I even think it had merit

I'm just saying that it's the sorta thing that if I said it, it would be misinterpreted as me defending the church due to my obvious Christian sensibilities...

Despite me not believing in Jesus and being more of a depraved hedonistic deviant than the lot of you, in terms of actual sexual behavior.



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I'm not gonna try to put words into OH's mouth but what I imagine he would try to say if he was as smart as I am is that exploitation of workers applies to exploitation of sex workers as well, and exploitation of workers can be both sexual and non-sexual and both are based on the power dynamics of capitalism and you can't solve either exploitation or sexual exploitation in capitalism without solving the inherent problems in the power dynamics of capitalism that will exist so long as capitalism exists.
maybe. It seemed to me like he was somewhat irritated at society prioritizing sexual abuse above other forms of exploitation.
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Old 12-26-2019, 07:47 PM   #20008 (permalink)
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I imagine there are statistics out there that we're too lazy to look up, which is kind of the point. You need to at least try to look up the literature on the subject to make informed statements.
No, I looked up the statistics on women forced into porn and can't find ****. I found an article about how more and more women in Japan are coming forward about being tricked or forced into porn, but it just had the number attached to that case. We really lack a lot of stats that you'd think we'd have.

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Epstein could have and I'm sure did exist in any form of government/economics throughout history. It wasn't capitalism that covered up his crimes, it was powerful people. Or to be more specific, capitalism covered up his crimes in the same way any other form of government/economics would have covered up his crimes.
Sure, I think any power angle could be exploited in the same way. However, capitalism definitely makes it easier because it creates a clear hierarchy where those that have the capital have the power.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 12-26-2019, 08:02 PM   #20009 (permalink)
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once again if you actually followed the argument you would be aware that while I agree actual incest is more disturbing, I still find incest role play and the audience that gravitates towards it kinda creepy. This was literally established near the beginning of the argument when (i think) batlord pointed out is just role playing and I said as much to him then.
So your argument is that modern porn is kinda creepy? Absolutely who gives a ****? You waste your own time, dude.
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Old 12-26-2019, 08:19 PM   #20010 (permalink)
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maybe. It seemed to me like he was somewhat irritated at society prioritizing sexual abuse above other forms of exploitation.
Like I said I'm smarter than him but his basic point stands even if he ends up sounding like he's bitching about men's rights.

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No, I looked up the statistics on women forced into porn and can't find ****. I found an article about how more and more women in Japan are coming forward about being tricked or forced into porn, but it just had the number attached to that case. We really lack a lot of stats that you'd think we'd have.
I definitely think there's a forced blindness about exploitation and bad stuff in porn since people just don't want to care. I mean there was that woman who was basically bullied into committing suicide because she agreed with someone who didn't want to perform with a man who'd done gay porn because there's a poorly kept secret that gay porn has an STD problem, but when you look into it gay porn does in fact have an STD problem.

It was treated as a problem with the people pointing it out as if they were homophobic, and regardless of whether or not they were there is an STD problem in gay porn that could be dealt with if there was actual responsible government oversight of porn in general.

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Sure, I think any power angle could be exploited in the same way. However, capitalism definitely makes it easier because it creates a clear hierarchy where those that have the capital have the power.
Yeah but the Epstein problem isn't really about capitalism so much as it's about the problem of power dynamics in general. Someone who has money doesn't need capitalism to take a poor waif and use them for whatever purpose they want with the promise of food and status. It would exist under literally any form of government or economics that allows for power disparity. Feudal lords could do the exact same thing without having to account for any extra blocks to their influence.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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