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Old 10-11-2017, 11:18 PM   #7401 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chula Vista View Post
I get where you are coming from. My question is: Are you just going to sit back and bitch about it, or do you have any valid ideas for how to fix it?

We're at a point in US history where we can't simply rip the foundation out from under the house - otherwise the country would collapse in every way possible: economically, criminally, socially, basically complete chaos - so we have to come up with ideas that would have a chance of working on top of the current foundation.
Wouldn't a criminal collapse be a good thing?
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:34 AM   #7402 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Neapolitan View Post
Wouldn't a criminal collapse be a good thing?
Ooops.

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Old 10-12-2017, 03:26 AM   #7403 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chula Vista View Post
I get where you are coming from. My question is: Are you just going to sit back and bitch about it, or do you have any valid ideas for how to fix it?

We're at a point in US history where we can't simply rip the foundation out from under the house - otherwise the country would collapse in every way possible: economically, criminally, socially, basically complete chaos - so we have to come up with ideas that would have a chance of working on top of the current foundation.
Sigh. Yes, I am going to sit back and bitch about it, because there are no answers that people are intelligent enough to give right now. Take global warming. You and I and the part of the population not in denial know something has to be done. It's common sense. But you and I and all the rest of us know full well that America will do nothing until New York is underwater, whether or not we want to admit it. America, China, and any other country with a vested interest in not undermining their economies (as they see it) by doing anything real to stop manmade global warming, and are going to stick their fingers in their ears and hum a tune, and no amount of voting, protesting, or solar panels is going to change this.

So we're ****ed. By the time we actually decide to pull our thumbs from our asses it will likely be far too late to do anything about it and billions of people all over the world will become displaced as their homes sink, which I'm sure will not have any good effect on our economy. So what's the point of all your trying to preserve America's economic integrity? It's going to get shot in the head no matter what you do and your kids are going to get butt****ed. Or at least your grandkids. In fact maybe the bottom falling out might actually have a chance of upsetting the current status quo to the point that we might have time to do SOMETHING to stop global warming, or at least make some tiny amount of difference.

But yeah, worry about your mortgage as if your house will even exist in half a century, because people are stupid.
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.

Last edited by The Batlord; 10-12-2017 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:22 AM   #7404 (permalink)
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But like, with the analogous words of the metaphor specifically.
Elphenor's wolves and sheep vs. Chula's foxes and henhouses, winner takes all.
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:15 AM   #7405 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chula Vista View Post
Nice rant Bat. But you didn't answer the question. You gonna offer anything up or just sit back and bitch all day while you float in your pool of apathy?
I think we all know the answer to that one.
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:40 AM   #7406 (permalink)
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We need more efficient means of international shipping. That would monumentally decrease our footprint.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:38 AM   #7407 (permalink)
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It's not an all or nothing game with GW either

we have an idea of how much emissions to reduce to buy time at least until I'm old enough to not give a **** too

there's also some interesting permanent solutions being devised so reducing effects short term gives humanity a chance
And yet the conversation has been so degraded in this country (and presumably China too I guess), the biggest (or second biggest) contributor to global warming, that we can't even agree that it's man made and the side who actually might do something about it doesn't have the balls to stand up to the republicans, and I imagine the democrats are too beholden to their corporate backers to do anything but half-measures that don't threaten all those greased wheels.

The sheer fact that it's gotten to this point and that half the ****ing country thinks it's a conspiracy is some pretty damn good evidence of just how useless people are for acting in their best interest outside of their own immediate micro world (e.g. friends, family, their job, etc). You can brainstorm all the **** you want but it's pissing into the wind until the effects of global warming become completely undeniable, and even then I would not be surprised if conservatives were still able to bury their heads in the sand and at least slow down any useful measures we might take.

Global warming is almost a foregone conclusion at this point as far as I'm concerned. So **** my fellow man until they can prove me wrong. They're not worth my time, effort, or emotional investment, anymore than I am to them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:20 AM   #7408 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Batlord View Post
.... Take global warming. You and I and the part of the population not in denial know something has to be done. It's common sense. But you and I and all the rest of us know full well that America will do nothing until New York is underwater, whether or not we want to admit it. America, China, and any other country with a vested interest in not undermining their economies (as they see it) by doing anything real to stop manmade global warming, and are going to stick their fingers in their ears and hum a tune, and no amount of voting, protesting, or solar panels is going to change this.
Of course we're all entitled to an opinion, but especially when we talk about the future, it's an opinion on top of a guess, so it's doubly uncertain. So, imo, the bolded bit should come with lots of disclaimers; it's not a fact. What we do know is that the world, and America under Obama, were all in unison taking the first cautious steps to recognize and reduce the human contribution to global warming. Also, around the world there is growing awareness of the need for and viability of greener energy policies. We could say that the battle is now in progress between the Fossil Fuelers and The Greens - let's not throw in the towel prematurely! Instead, check out some promising developments here:

http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...terthread.html

So, as per elphenor, my opinion is that there is still some room for hope and my worry is that Batlord's statement, and other similar prophesies of doom may be self-realizing. In some situations, an expectation of failure will actually bring about that failure, and this is especially true of environmental issues. An attitude of, "we're doomed so why bother" is a pretty sure way to bring about that result. It's like being in a boat that's sinking; if you bail and row, you might just save yourself. If you do nothing but say "It's no good we're sinking", then you'll sink for sure.

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In fact maybe the bottom falling out might actually have a chance of upsetting the current status quo to the point that we might have time to do SOMETHING to stop global warming, or at least make some tiny amount of difference.
^ Not sure about this scenario, unless we're talking about some post-apocalytic world in which there are so few of us that our carbon-footprint is negligible.

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But yeah, worry about your mortgage as if your house will even exist in half a century, because people are stupid.
^ In my environment thread, you can check a scientific projection about where the US coastline will be in 50 years. Plenty of dry land (though not in Florida). If you live on high ground, a bigger prob might be the waves of homeless refugees camping out in your garden and mistreating your patio furniture.
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Last edited by Lisnaholic; 10-12-2017 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:35 AM   #7409 (permalink)
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You and I and the part of the population not in denial know something has to be done. It's common sense. But you and I and all the rest of us know full well that America will do nothing until New York is underwater.
Not true. See this is where voting comes into play. Look at what Trump is currently doing. He's basically on a mission to undo everything that has Obama's name attached to it.
Including stuff that would help decrease the US's impact on global warming.

Just this past week:

http://www.nature.com/news/trump-epa...lation-1.22813

And then there's these:

Sept. 5: Trump rescinds the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals.
Aug. 29: Trump reversed a rule requiring large companies to report worker pay by race and gender in order to decrease the wage gap through greater pay transparency.
Aug. 25: Trump signed an order banning transgender troops to serve in the US military, reversing Obama-era reforms.
Aug. 15: Trump rescinded a flood-risk rule in response to climate change. The rule was intended to insure safer placement of roads, bridges and other infrastructure out of new areas prone to flooding because of sea level rise and increased precipitation. Trump reversed the rule to speed up the approval process for projects.
July 3: The Trump administration contested a Obama administration rule qualifying more people to get overtime pay by doubling the minimum salary a worker must make to qualify for a management exemption to $47,000.
June 16: Trump outlined a hard-line policy on Cuba, in direct opposition to Obama’s efforts to foster friendlier relations with the communist government of President Raul Castro.
June 1: Trump ‘quits’ the Paris Climate Treaty, adopted by Obama in an executive order last year.
May 14: Senate voted to repeal Obama-era regulation that restricted drug-testing for job seekers receiving unemployment benefits.
April 28: Trump signed an executive order aimed at expanding offshore oil and gas drilling in the Arctic, Atlantic, and possibly Pacific Ocean, scrapping another facet of Obama’s environmental legacy.
April 27: Trump directed the Interior Department to reconsider safety regulations for offshore drilling put in place after the 2010 BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. The executive order was intended to roll back Obama administration attempts to ban drilling off the southeastern Atlantic and Alaskan coasts.
April 26: Trump signed an executive order giving the Interior Department the power to whittle down or abolish some national monuments, which would effectively reverse Obama’s creation and expansion of national monuments during his term of office.
April 13: Trump revokes an Obama administration rule protecting funding for Planned Parenthood and other organizations that provide legal abortions.
March 28: Trump rescinded Obama’s clean energy plans, which put a cap on greenhouse gas emissions by power plants.
March 27: Trump rescinded Obama’s 2014 Fair Pay and Safe Workplaces meant to apply 14 labor and civil rights laws to federal contractors, who now will no longer have to provide documentation of their workplace practices.
March 27: Trump signed bills overturning two Obama-era education regulations, including required programs training new teachers and the Every Student Succeeds Act intended to hold schools accountable for student performance.
Feb. 28: Trump rolled back Obama’s Clean Water Rule, intended to increase the scope of waterways regulated for pollutants.
Feb. 23: The Trump administration withdrew protection for transgender students to use the bathrooms and facilities corresponding to their gender identity.
Jan. 23: Trump withdrew from the trans-pacific Partnership, a trade deal between the US and countries on the Pacific Rim.
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on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:41 AM   #7410 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lisnaholic View Post
Of course we're all entitled to an opinion, but especially when we talk about the future, it's an opinion on top of a guess, so it's doubly uncertain. So, imo, the bolded bit should come with lots of disclaimers; it's not a fact. What we do know is that the world, and America under Obama, were all in unison taking the first cautious steps to recognize and reduce the human contribution to global warming. Also, around the world there is growing awareness of the need for and viability of greener energy policies. We could say that the battle is now in progress between the Fossil Fuelers and The Greens - let's not throw in the towel prematurely! Instead, check out some promising developments here:

http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...terthread.html

So, as per elphenor, my opinion is that there is still some room for hope and my worry is that Batlord's statement, and other similar prophesies of doom may be self-realizing. In some situations, an expectation of failure will actually bring about that failure, and this is especially true of environmental issues. An attitude of, "we're doomed so why bother" is a pretty sure way to bring about that result. It's like being in a boat that's sinking; if you bail and row, you might just save yourself. If you do nothing but say "It's no good we're sinking", then you'll sink for sure.
Honestly that attitude sounds like optimism for optimism's sake, and I am simply not that guy and never will be. The narrative at least in this country really hasn't changed any, and anything Obama did was pretty much under the radar cause nobody cared. Global warming discussion has virtually zero presence in American election cycles.

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^ Not sure about this scenario, unless we're talking about some post-apocalytic world in which there are so few of us that our carbon-footprint is negligible.
That wasn't any kind of prediction. Just an arbitrary maybe. Maybe our economy tanks to such an extent that the populace actually can't afford big screen TVs and big houses they already couldn't afford, and maybe also food. And then **** gets real or whatever.

Quote:
^ In my environment thread, you can check a scientific projection about where the US coastline will be in 50 years. Plenty of dry land (though not in Florida). If you live on high ground, a bigger prob might be the waves of homeless refugees camping out in your garden and mistreating your patio furniture.
Well I know Chula lives in Cali so I was guessing that he might end up underwater. But yeah I was thinking about the whole refugee crisis that would result as well and how Chula would probably be living in a disaster zone camp.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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