Dr_Rez

Wendy no offense but you cant hold your end in a debate by continuously posting links. Half of which have no respectable sources.

__________________
*Best chance of losing virginity is in prison crew*
*Always Checks Credentials Crew*
*nba > nfl crew*
*Shave one of my legs to pretend its a girl in my bed crew*

lucifer_sam

It's absolutely ridiculous to compare abortion to infanticide. Many women (or teenage girls) aren't ready to become mothers and really have no other option than to abort. It isn't evil or wicked, and it most certainly isn't for "convenience." A child is an enormous responsibility, and it should not be under the judgment of conservatives to determine who must have a baby. I know several girls who have had abortions, and I can honestly say that it would have been the worst decision of their life to bear a child.

__________________
first.am

WWWP

I'd rather someone have an abortion than see unfit parents bring a child into the world.

__________________

#DEMODFROWNLAND
#TERMLIMITSFORMODERATORS

lucifer_sam

My point exactly.

__________________
first.am

The Unfan

Because they already do read like they purposefully exclude God, gods, deities, mysticism, and supernatural concepts in general. The constitution mentions a possible reference twice. Care to see the context?
Which in and of itself references no god in particular much less the Christian God.
and...
Which could very well mean nature, abiogenesis, your mom & dad, but most importantly is not a reference to any particular religion. ****, it even tries to be sensitive to all religions so that all people can accept it for what it is.

How about the first amendment?
See? NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION. Pretty clear. There can by no law that exists strictly because of religious reasoning. You know why that is? Because America was founded as a secular nation.

As for the founding father's beliefs. Most of them were Deists, not Christians. Aside from the mentioned two, Jefferson was probably the most out spoken of the deists. Washington didn't speak much of religion and pretty much made it publically known that it wasn't in his interest at all.

The Unfan

This isn't true. You can have morality without Judean laws or even roots. It is absurd to think morality even derives from Christianity much less necessitating it. Hell, I'd go so far as to say that Christian morality is not only repugnant and vile, but comparitively immoral. That is neither here nor there though. The question being if the founding fathers used Christian morals should be answered first by defining morals, then defining, "Christian morals" and then defining where they derived their morals from.

So let us look at what the word "moral" means.

Definitions 5 and 6 don't really apply. So we have 4 definitions to work from which essentially add up to "good behavior." This seems like a fair definition.

Second, lets define "Christian morals." Based on the two words in use we can derive two meanings. The first being "Behavior which is good in accordance with Christianity" and the second being "Good behavior deriving from Christian faith." Again, I'd say these are fair. Feel free to disagree.

Lastly, what were the morals of the founding fathers vs morality as derived from Christianity and also where did the founding fathers derive their morality or sense there of. Let us assume the 10 commandments are what define Christian morality. If you disagree with the use of the 10 commandments just note so and I'll bring up other scripture. For this we will use the 10 commandments as found in the book of Exodus (For other references you could use Deuteronomy). They are as follows followed by my reason why the founding fathers most certainly, by this standard, did not use Christian morality.
1. Since many were deists they did believe in a god, but not God. Many believed in natural God who operated through natural means without all the supernatural mystic nonsense. This sort of deity is not the God of the bible.

2. They most certainly wanted freedom of the press, and that would include artistic interpretations of all the things mentioned. They did not view God as too sacred for artistic intent.

3. I've got no real comment for this one. It might have applied to some of them.

4. The "sabbath day" isn't considered holy. For most Americans, and especially the ones in congress, the senate, and office, it is just another day of work.

5. Doesn't seem to apply too much. It is one of those cases that could have been true.

6. Fine, this should be law.

7. With scriptual backing you will see that this also includes "lusting in your own heart" which I will liberally take to mean "feel attracted to some fine piece of ass." I'm not sure how many followed this and to what degree. I'm almost certain some of them had to be deviants to some degree though. If I recall some documentaries noted Franklin in particular had a thing for younger women, though I don't recall the documentary or if it even exists as its been so long. I could be wrong on this.

8. Again, I agree this should be law and so did they. This is totally acceptable.

9. You shall not lie in court. Seems fair.

10. The fathers were actually pretty highly in favor of at least a semi-free market. The word "covet" means to "want with a passion" or something to that degree. Of course the founding fathers weren't against wanting things or else they wouldn't have wanted a free market of any sort. Wanting things is how business works. If my neighbor has something and I think its cool I'll buy one. Economics 101 says this is pretty good.

So between the 10 commandments 4 most certainly were heavily argued against by the founding fathers at least in terms of running the country. 2 seem more like personal choices, and 1 I'm not sure on but shouldn't be law. This leaves 3 things that are "morally good" according to Christianity that the founding fathers found necessary and I can make a case for why all 3 of them just seem natural later. 3 more which some might have adhered to but didn't see as necessarilly good for the country, and 4 they felt were outright bad for the country.

So now lets look at the other option for "Christian morals" which would mean "morals derived from Christianity." Since we've established that some were deists, some were Christians, and some were probably neither that some may have morality derived from Christianity and some may not.

I strongly feel that it is insincere at best to derive morality from that which you don't believe in or know to be true. You seem like a fairly Christian person, so would you derive morality from The Big Platypus In My Shoe? Of course not, you don't think it exists, so why would you? I think this would apply to the non-Christians. Why would they use God to fathom morality when they disbelieved in God and didn't know God to be true? It just seems silly.

Secondly to say your morality is derived from your religion says a lot about your character. It means you're telling me that without your religion you would have no morals. If you're really the kind of person who would be a rapist and a killer if not for God than you have no room telling anyone they are immoral.

If I had to take a guess evolution. My theory is at some point in the development of the human brain we were much more primative and so we had to develop courtesy as a survival skill. We were probably close knit roamers who would see that same people a lot. Through this we developed a sense of community and thus developed morality. Because we were developing into communities or groupings we had to develop a sense of mutual benefits. Among these would be things like not hurting each other, because hurting each other hurts the community. So basically morality was caused by the brain adapting to a larger scale of existence.

Expletive Deleted

So is this just really bad trolling or what?

Double X

I'll say. She sounded somewhat moderate at first...but I have a sneaking suspicion she is a bible-thumper.

I mean there is a theory of gravity too, but no one argues that for some reason...

The Unfan

They're still teaching these demonic lies in school? I thought by now God's America would have converted to teaching the Godly truth of intelligent pulling!

WaspStar

No one ever claimed that they could "prove" anything with science. There is no "absolute" proof, but theories and laws are far better than mere superstitious guesswork.

You are missing the point. The Founding Fathers were not perfect. They did not view women as equals. They did not believe that Native Americans deserved to be treated properly and they supported (if, in some cases, hesitantly) the practice of slavery. They realized their imperfections, which is why the Constitution can be amended.

__________________
"This sure doesn't look like 'Crazy Ernie's Amazing Emporium of Total Bargain Madness!'"