Son of JayJamJah

that is a faulty premise and a complete distortion of the facts.

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jibber

oh really?

the war on iraq was started ORIGINALLY under the premise that iraq was harboring al-queda and working with bin laden.

this was later proved to be completely and utterly false.

It was further justified that iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

this was also proven to be false.

Now where exactly was the distortion of facts?

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Son of JayJamJah

Right in what you posted. It was believed that Iraq had WMD's all credible international and American intelligence at the time pointed to that. Doesn't matter if it was proven false, it's what everyone believed at the time.

Several UN sanctions forbid the Iraqis from possessing WMD's or Chemical weapons. The UN refused to uphold and enforce the sanctions so the US and other concerned nations took action.

Also Iraq has been proven to be a hotbed for Al-Queda and at no time did anyone say that Bin'Laden was in Iraq, we we're already in Afghanistan looking for him when the Iraq war started.

If you want to say the war has been mismanaged or was until recently, fine.

If you want to make a case for a short sighted approach to the war on terror, fine.

If you want to make a case against war in general based on personal morality, ideals, fine.

But regardless of semantics if you can see the difference between the good guys and the bad ones here and understand the gravity of the situation in whole I feel you are greatly misguided.

Your thoughts?

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jibber

No, NOT EVERYONE believed that iraq had WMD's at the time. A huge number of people in the US did not think so, and so did a MASSIVE number of people in canada and other nations.

yes, as i stated earlier, NOW iraq is a hotbed for al-queda operations, after sadam was ousted. they were not, and had not been present before the war.

yes, i do want to say the war was mismanaged. I do want to say that it was a short sighted, and VERY misguided approach to the war on terror. I am making a case against the war based on my personal morals and beliefs.

I do not, however, see this issue as black and white as you do. I do not think that bombing the **** out of a country because of a minority of fanatical people. I do not see that war is the answer in fighting terrorism or anti-wester sentiment in the middle east. Any intelligent person can see that war will never be the answer to this. There has been years of oppression and poverty imposed by puppet governments of the west, and this anti-western sentiment has been so indoctrinated that unless we actually go to the route of the cause, it will never be solved.

People there hate us because they are desperately poor, have no access to education, and have been brainwashed to think that the western infidels are the cause of all their problems. They have seen their governments extort them and drain all resources away to benefit only the rich minority, and they have been told it is the US's fault. BOMBING them isnt going to help increase their regard for the US.

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What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

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Son of JayJamJah

I don't want to argue semantics or talking points. But no nation had intelligence to the contrary of American intelligence. I don't care what Sean Penn or Guy Le**** from Ottawa think and more then they care what I think.

I do want to discuss ideas and phiolosophy and you have some of both I disagree with. You are exactly right in isolating the cause of the anti-Western sentiment. However I do think overthrowing a brutal tyrant like Saddam and staying to help rebuild the nation is a good way to build pro-western sentiment. Have you seen the videos of people embracing and welcoming US soldiers? Have you talked to a soldier who was there?

The greatest plight to middle eastern culture is not modern western culture but religion. There has been turmoil, decent, hostility's and and out and out lack of humanity in that region of the world forever, literally always as long as we have records. And all of their wars are based on a extreme religious fundamentals and God\Allah serving as motivation often times for both sides.

Also image and bigger picture aside the greater concern in the right now has to be the fact that Islamo-Facists want to kill us and that they only respond to violence. They are bullies if you tell them not to do something they do it. If you ask them nice not to do something they agree and then do it anyway. If you barter they take your chips and never hold up their own end. You have to kill them, because if you don't they will kill you. I really believe it's that simple, that black and white. Most things are given enough thought, it always starts with motivation, that'll help you paint the rest of the picture.

And we don't bomb innocent people, at least not intentionally.

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jibber

No, the rest of the world did not have intelligence that proved Bush to be wrong, what the rest of the world DID have was the sense to stay out of it and to condemn it until other options have been tried.

Yes, overthrowing Sadam did help, but don't kid yourself that the country is being "rebuilt" now. The country is still being ripped apart by way, and will be for years to come now since the two warring factions of the party are not even close to a reconciliation.

You're whole argument about iraq responding to nothing but violence is entirely unjustified, as iraq had made no actual attack on the US. In Afghanistan, the UN was on board with invading because the leader, Bin Laden, attacked the US. Iraq made no such attack on the US, and thus the UN did not sanction the invasion.

I think you are dead wrong about religion being the main culprit. The main culprit has always been the lack of education and the huge disparity between the rich and the poor in the middle east. Since the beginning rich landowners in the middle east have used religious fervor as a weapon to control the lower class and use them as puppets for their own personal gain. The rich who were in control of the middle east were always the worst oppressors of their own people. The kept them without access to education for hundreds of years, kept them in poverty, did nothing to spread health care, and as a result, they were left with an angry, bitter, and uneducated population that was ready to be whipped into a religious frenzy because their religion was all they had. If their leaders goaded them into a holy war, and told them that the other side was the reason they were suffering, they would do it.

Religion has never been the culprit, it was only the tool.

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What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

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The Unfan

Also the greatest plight of the western culture. Go figure.

Could you imagine giving this advice to kids? "Son, I know there is a bully who has been taking your lunch money. Perhaps you should kill him."

On a more serious note, I think painting it in such a black and white requires completely ignoring third parties. There are more than two sides in this war, and the people cought right in the middle are of just as much value as anyone else.

WendyCal

Okay, well, now i'd like to see some sources re:huge number of Americans thought...; MASSIVE numbers of Canadians thought...;

Oh. NOW, it's a hotbed of terrorist activity. Now that we've moved in, guns blazing and all. i don't know about you, but if i was some sort of terrorist? i don't think i'd go to the war, especially if i knew where it was going to be hosted...

Jibber? It was our country that was attacked. It's our decision how to handle that attack. If Canada doesn't like it, oh well. If the U.N. doesn't like it, oh well. WE were attacked, and we retaliated, rather than just sit back and twiddle our thumbs until the citizenry could be polled for ideas.

That's the thing i was talking about, where someONE is in charge.

jibber

No. YOU were not attacked by IRAQ. YOU were attacked by AFGHANISTAN. IRAQ. AFGHANISTAN. IRAQ. AFGHANISTAN. TWO DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

The rest of the world did not agree because collectively, the majority of the countries in the UN did not think the war just.

__________________
What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road.
William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways

Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass.

HOOKED ON THE WHITE POWDER

lucifer_sam

...in addition to the majority of people in the United States.

Don't infer too much about the "collective" consciousness of America. Few people still support the war in Iraq, and most of them are backwards and ignorant.

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