Morality and the Bible (quote, Lute)

sleepy jack · 12-01-2008, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Lulz jack. Religion isn't evil, it's the human scum who throw their sense of reason in the trashbin and use their "faith" as a scapegoat when they explain why they commited atrocities and made dumbass choices that are the problem. I'm a non-denominational Christian, but that doesn't mean I'm being steered into evil action now does it? And lets not even mention the fact that people who jump on the "let's criticize religion!" bandwagon are, more often than not, unable to make a distinction between irrational obedience and having trust in something more than yourself to a logical degree, and yet continue to progagate worthless generalizations about ALL adherents to a specific mode of religious thought because its conveniant to do so.

When ****e happens, people are responsible for their actions. Regardless of what you see or hear or read, if you let something else determine what you do then you are simply making an excuse so you can commit the action in question. This doesn't just apply to religion, but to T.V., music, art, advertising, video games, etc. Men and women get themselves into messes because its easier to put their brains on cruise control and have someone else do the thinking for them (culture, friends, the media, your local pastor), because people on the whole are lazy and like to live life as if they're half awake.

Ultimately, blaming religion for stupid people doing stupid things is no different than blaming Toyota if you got in a car wreck due to your own crappy driving (or the other driver's driving). To say otherwise is making excuses for the weaklings who were tools to begin with.

People don't crash cars in the name of Toyota.

cardboard adolescent · 12-01-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by streetwaves

When has that ever not been the case? Followers of every major religion kill when they want to, and justify that killing with their religious book. If you think the belief in God overrides human nature, you're in for a surprise. What the belief in God does is it slows moral progress and often justifies evil in the society we live in today, where we don't need to physically compete for resources. How do you think societies formed in the first place? People agreed to give away total freedom for protected-but-limited freedom. The same would happen if this society was to break down. Again, God would be irrelevant to the way we'd act, we'd just expect rewards when it was all over.

It's not the belief in God, it's the attachment to scripture and other historically dated artifacts that promote certain "moral" views such as homosexuality being wrong or not wearing mixed threads etc. etc. that allows people to justify themselves in acting hatefully. I do believe that someone who truly believed in God, that it was absolutely wrong to kill, and that if they did so they would suffer eternal damnation, they would allow themselves to be killed before killing. I think that an atheist has no real way of justifying "murder is absolutely wrong" without relying on structures which in turn rely on God.

Anteater · 12-01-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

People don't crash cars in the name of Toyota.

I see what you did there.

~~The Unfan~~ · 12-01-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

I think that an atheist has no real way of justifying "murder is absolutely wrong" without relying on structures which in turn rely on God.

So my mind isn't good enough justification?

khfreek · 12-01-2008, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

I think that an atheist has no real way of justifying "murder is absolutely wrong" without relying on structures which in turn rely on God.

I realize that my life is an absolutely valuable thing that I would never want to give up, and based on the actions of people around me, I know they feel the same way about life. That's why I would never end another human's life, because it would be as much of a stupid and horrible thing to do as killing myself.

streetwaves · 12-02-2008, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

It's not the belief in God, it's the attachment to scripture and other historically dated artifacts that promote certain "moral" views such as homosexuality being wrong or not wearing mixed threads etc. etc. that allows people to justify themselves in acting hatefully. I do believe that someone who truly believed in God, that it was absolutely wrong to kill, and that if they did so they would suffer eternal damnation, they would allow themselves to be killed before killing. I think that an atheist has no real way of justifying "murder is absolutely wrong" without relying on structures which in turn rely on God.

You do realize that the argument could go on forever, don't you? Scripture and the belief in God go hand in hand. Without scripture, you can have an idea of God, but it'd be left up to your imagination what he expects of you. You're doing nothing more than assuming how an atheist would act, and while it's a reasonable hypothesis I suppose, there's no use in arguing it if there's no evidence to support it. And remember, theists could easily find justification in the Bible for killing, just as they do today. Without scripture, the belief in God wouldn't necessarily mean that killing would result in eternal damnation. Someone who just believes in God doesn't automatically have a higher sense of morality than an atheist, and when you add scripture (which you admit allows people to justify evil) you add the possibility for the theist to justify just about anything he/she wants to do.

cardboard adolescent · 12-02-2008, 12:58 PM

It does all depend on your conception of God I suppose, but I see God as being necessary for morality because the idea of God involves seeing yourself as a subordinated being; an object to a higher subject, rather than seeing yourself as the ultimate subject and limitless in your moral freedom.

And yes, this argument could go on forever.... that's why it's one worth having

streetwaves · 12-02-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

It does all depend on your conception of God I suppose, but I see God as being necessary for morality because the idea of God involves seeing yourself as a subordinated being; an object to a higher subject, rather than seeing yourself as the ultimate subject and limitless in your moral freedom.

And yes, this argument could go on forever.... that's why it's one worth having

But does seeing yourself as a subordinated being mean a higher sense of morality? Either way, morality is not derived from God, and the idea of "justifying" your morality through God only comes into play when you add scripture, which can be used to justify almost anything.

I meant to add that I don't mind having the conversation forever. Just wanted to warn you in case you didn't know.

~~The Unfan~~ · 12-02-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

It does all depend on your conception of God I suppose, but I see God as being necessary for morality because the idea of God involves seeing yourself as a subordinated being; an object to a higher subject, rather than seeing yourself as the ultimate subject and limitless in your moral freedom.

But why is that a bad thing? Being limitless on moral freedom doesn't mean inclination to do what others or perhaps yourself would see as morally unjust. In fact, I feel the opposite to some degree. If God is the best thing we have and I am to live by it's morality and rules than life ultimately means nothing, especially since I highly disagree with the morality of all the deities I've read about. However, if I am my own standard than life gains great meaning, and among those things to give it meaning is knowing that I am a moral being seeking to do honest good. (Perceptive good might be a better wording.) By taking all deities out of the equasion I gain reason to be a moral being.

**Janszoon** · 12-02-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

It does all depend on your conception of God I suppose, but I see God as being necessary for morality because the idea of God involves seeing yourself as a subordinated being; an object to a higher subject...

The problem with deriving morality from authority like that is that it essentially means that you have to think of yourself as an amoral blank slate that is simply subject to the capricious whim of the higher authority. If God decided tomorrow that rape was morally good then you would have to go along with that viewpoint. IMHO, this renders morality meaningless.

12-02-2008, 12:58 PM	#67 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	It does all depend on your conception of God I suppose, but I see God as being necessary for morality because the idea of God involves seeing yourself as a subordinated being; an object to a higher subject, rather than seeing yourself as the ultimate subject and limitless in your moral freedom. And yes, this argument could go on forever.... that's why it's one worth having