Morality and the Bible (albums, quote, Inci, Lute, Hang)

streetwaves · 12-02-2008, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

The problem with deriving morality from authority like that is that it essentially means that you have to think of yourself as an amoral blank slate that is simply subject to the capricious whim of the higher authority. If God decided tomorrow that rape was morally good then you would have to go along with that viewpoint. IMHO, this renders morality meaningless.

I totally agree with this post. Morality, in that case, would simply be obedience to the higher power.

cardboard adolescent · 12-02-2008, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan

But why is that a bad thing? Being limitless on moral freedom doesn't mean inclination to do what others or perhaps yourself would see as morally unjust. In fact, I feel the opposite to some degree. If God is the best thing we have and I am to live by it's morality and rules than life ultimately means nothing, especially since I highly disagree with the morality of all the deities I've read about. However, if I am my own standard than life gains great meaning, and among those things to give it meaning is knowing that I am a moral being seeking to do honest good. (Perceptive good might be a better wording.) By taking all deities out of the equasion I gain reason to be a moral being.

If you are your own standard, if man is the measure of everything, then true is only true because you want it to be, and could just as easily be false if you felt like it. Morality becomes an empty justification for whatever you choose to do. Good and evil are just afterthoughts. If meaning is constructed, than it could just as easily not be, and thus negates itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

The problem with deriving morality from authority like that is that it essentially means that you have to think of yourself as an amoral blank slate that is simply subject to the capricious whim of the higher authority. If God decided tomorrow that rape was morally good then you would have to go along with that viewpoint. IMHO, this renders morality meaningless.

And in my viewpoint that is the only way morality can be meaningful at all. God could lay down laws which are absurd, he could ask me to sacrifice my first-born son, but it is only in recognizing my own limits and subjugation that morality can actually "tell" me to do something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by streetwaves

I totally agree with this post. Morality, in that case, would simply be obedience to the higher power.

Yes! It is either this, or it is nothing.

Furthermore, it is this digging to the bottom of things, which leads inevitably to nihilism, that paradoxically leads one to the idea of God. How this idea is expressed is steeped in historicity, not because of how one arrives at it, but because of how one is forced to express it to get others to embrace it.

**Janszoon** · 12-02-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

And in my viewpoint that is the only way morality can be meaningful at all. God could lay down laws which are absurd, he could ask me to sacrifice my first-born son, but it is only in recognizing my own limits and subjugation that morality can actually "tell" me to do something.

So are you saying if God told you to go out and rape and murder you would? Or are you saying you have a personal morality that would prevent from doing that even if God instructed you to?

streetwaves · 12-02-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

And in my viewpoint that is the only way morality can be meaningful at all. God could lay down laws which are absurd, he could ask me to sacrifice my first-born son, but it is only in recognizing my own limits and subjugation that morality can actually "tell" me to do something.

The error in your argument is that you assume we need God as a means of "grounding" our sense of morality, as if without God we would know no limits and have no way of judging our own morality. However, there are no perfectly straight lines in reality, and yet most human beings I know are quite capable of judging the straightness of lines that we do observe. They can even tell you which line is straighter than the other, and they don't need to see an absolutely straight line in order to do so. Human beings are able to judge degrees of things, even if perfect examples (i.e.: God) do not exist.

cardboard adolescent · 12-02-2008, 05:25 PM

if there is no such thing as a straight line then our judging a line's straightness is an illusion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

So are you saying if God told you to go out and rape and murder you would? Or are you saying you have a personal morality that would prevent from doing that even if God instructed you to?

are you kidding me? absolutely! my life gets a purpose, i get to fight and feel glorious and have sex! what more could you ask for?

khfreek · 12-02-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

are you kidding me? absolutely! my life gets a purpose, i get to fight and feel glorious and have sex! what more could you ask for?

I'm begging you to tell me you're joking.

cardboard adolescent · 12-02-2008, 05:41 PM

since there's no way for me to talk to God i don't see what difference it makes

khfreek · 12-02-2008, 05:57 PM

The fact that you'd happily rape someone if God told you to makes a whole lot of difference to me.

cardboard adolescent · 12-02-2008, 06:06 PM

absurd premises lead to absurd conclusions

**Janszoon** · 12-02-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

if there is no such thing as a straight line then our judging a line's straightness is an illusion

That's life unfortunately. Considering how little information we have we're kind of stuck building our foundations out of assumptions. At least I know I feel empathy, so I can use that as my moral yardstick. God seems like so much more of a shaky foundation by comparison. I mean, right off the bat there's the problem that I have no reason to believe such a being exists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

Quote:

Originally Posted by janszoon

So are you saying if God told you to go out and rape and murder you would? Or are you saying you have a personal morality that would prevent from doing that even if God instructed you to?

are you kidding me? absolutely! my life gets a purpose, i get to fight and feel glorious and have sex! what more could you ask for?

Well as long as we know where you stand.

12-02-2008, 05:57 PM	#78 (permalink)
khfreek What a guy Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Brentwood, TN Posts: 2,123	The fact that you'd happily rape someone if God told you to makes a whole lot of difference to me. __________________ last.fm

12-02-2008, 05:41 PM	#77 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	since there's no way for me to talk to God i don't see what difference it makes

12-02-2008, 06:06 PM	#79 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	absurd premises lead to absurd conclusions