Originally Posted by Yukon Cornelius (Post 620467)

The big bang was when space and time collided before that there was nothing...

Originally Posted by SATCHMO (Post 620463)

Actually, I personally believe that it was more or less the early Roman Catholic church. The council of Nicea (wiki that) in the 3rd century. was responsible for thee doctrine that basically said that being a christian meant believing in christs divinity, death and resurrection as a means of salvation. Then there's the great scourge of charlemagne, the crusades, the spanish inquisition yada, yaa, yada. I don't believe Christ's original followers had such huge sticks up their a$$es.

Originally Posted by Kevorkian Logic (Post 620483)

I disagree, I think that previous to the Big Bang there was something, but one there was no time to measure what it was, and two taking Hartle-Hawking's idea is that the big bang was not the abrupt switching on of time at some singular first moment, but the emergence of time from space in an continuous manner. On a human time scale, the big bang was very much a sudden, explosive origin of space, time, and matter. But look very, very closely at that first tiny fraction of a second and you find that there was no precise and sudden beginning at all.



But this is off-topic.

Originally Posted by SATCHMO (Post 620345)

I hope your not expecting me to play apologetics here. My aim was not to get you to believe in christianity or even to defend it, but simply for you to not make the assumption that all of it's followers are gullible bible-thumping morons.
I am one of those rare people who picks and chooses what he believes from a wide varieties of faith because I do believe that all faiths have a certain degree of truth to them. And I find in most cases where the "facts" are disputable the metaphorical value that can be obtained from ignoring the literal and seeing through to the figurative is where wisdom is obtained. This is what is basically wrong with western religion. So much of peoples faith is exhausted on trying to believe in something literally, that no wisdom is able to penetrate into their lives.
Not to be offensive, but the same thing happens invertedly with atheists and reductionists.The "i'll believe it when I see it" mentality They become so obsessed with what can be proven scientifically that they ignore everything supernatural or metaphysical. Science has come a long way since Isaac newton died almost 300 years ago. Wev'e grown past reductionist based physical science and are well into the realm of quantum physics. Science and religion aren't really as at odds with each other as we used to think, and a lot of what we would have filed under supernatural 20 years ago is becoming widely accepted scientific theory. It takes a while for the general public to follow suit and internalize a new paradigm.
Creationism is still ridiculously stupid we can agree on that for now.

Originally Posted by Yukon Cornelius (Post 620511)

Agreed that it is off topic,

My question to you would be what then? Simply because there has to be? Thats not a good enough reason. The honest answer is we will really never know. I will just continue on with my opinion. Maybe time was irrelevent since everything was traveling at the speed of light (stops time). Who knows.

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent (Post 620556)

the fruit of the tree was science, which keeps us out of paradise. it's aristotle walking in circles in the cave. we've been doing it forever, time to take a breather.

Originally Posted by toretorden (Post 620575)

I thought life and sins were the things that keep people out of paradise.

Originally Posted by Kevorkian Logic (Post 620659)

I vaguely remember this so there's probably going to be holes in this, but if i'm right he is arguing the idea that when eve picked the fruit of the tree she had to stand up on a box (was it a box?) to get to the fruit, and therefore she is using science. Upon using this "science" to get the fruit she is abandoning something (i wish I could remember) and now can judge evil and good. She now has consciousness. This consciousness keeps us out of paradise, because as long as we continue to judge what is evil and good we cannot be in paradise.

Or you could just take the view that science keeps us from paradise because science is empirical in nature, and the religion in the supernatural, so you can't believe in both empirical ways of seeing things and religious ways.


pick which ever one pleases you the most.

Originally Posted by toretorden (Post 620575)

I thought life and sins were the things that keep people out of paradise.

Originally Posted by Yukon Cornelius (Post 620668)

I think my brain just exploded.... If you cant prove anything is there then what do you really know? Time started for us when this event happened period. Reason? Cause thats all we have.

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent (Post 620686)

she's abandoning her dependence on god. but crap, i've never heard about this box business before, i was taking it more on a metaphorical level.