Physical discipline against children .. okay or not?

DwnWthVwls · 10-31-2016, 11:34 PM

So do you think a "light" spanking on the butt (a handful of times throughout their entire life) is different than grabbing their arm (most likely firmly and to the point that your hurt their arm a bit, in my experience) and using physical force to get them to listen? Either way you are asserting physical dominance over your child to get them to behave.

Xurtio · 10-31-2016, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1blankmind

The point still stands that they are not the same, therefore will not respond to it the same. And what was the criteria for the adults in the study?

Is this behind a paywall for you? I have university internet so I can't tell if they're available for other people or not. If it tries to charge you, I can send you a copy: there were almost 35000 people in this study.

Physical Punishment and Mental Disorders: Results From a Nationally Representative US Sample | Articles | Pediatrics

Blank. · 10-31-2016, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xurtio

Is this behind a paywall for you? I have university internet so I can't tell if they're available for other people or not. If it tries to charge you, I can send you a copy: there were almost 35000 people in this study.

Physical Punishment and Mental Disorders: Results From a Nationally Representative US Sample | Articles | Pediatrics

It's not behind a paywall. It's 11 pages long and I don't have time to search through it. I'm getting work done. Since you cited it I thought that'd mean you'd know.

Xurtio · 10-31-2016, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

So do you think a "light" spanking on the butt (a handful of times throughout their entire life) is different than grabbing their arm (most likely firmly and to the point that your hurt their arm a bit, in my experience) and using physical force to get them to listen? Either way you are asserting physical dominance over your child to get them to behave.

"The current research investigated the possible link between harsh physical punishment (ie, pushing, grabbing, shoving, slapping, hitting) in the absence of more severe child maltreatment (ie, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, physical neglect, emotional neglect, exposure to intimate partner violence) and Axis I and II mental disorders."

Xurtio · 10-31-2016, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1blankmind

It's not behind a paywall. It's 11 pages long and I don't have time to search through it. I'm getting work done. Since you cited it I thought that mean you'd know.

I have not read this study in depth, but it's not the first of it's kind and I trust the authority of AAP. My research is in neural mechanisms, in general, and when I was first a parent, this was already being discussed from an attachment perspective (which is more of a psychological mechanism, but it has important neural correlates) and there was alreasy evidence, but not such large numbers of participants as this study.

Xurtio · 10-31-2016, 11:52 PM

Also, let's not forget the other half of the argument. Is spanking actually effective?

"Why is spanking ineffective for changing behavior in the longterm?

Approaching this from a behaviorist perspective, conditioning by punishment (pain) requires that the consequence always occur immediately after every instance. When you touch a hot stove with a bare hand, you get burned, period. This does not occur with the behaviors parents spank for—parents are often not around to see them or are not willing or able to spank immediately afterwards"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...s-bad-all-kids

And of course, this should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with operant conditioning. Punishment isn't very effecive in the first place, but it also feeds you vs. me mentality.

Punishment of course shouldn't be confused with negative reinforcement (taking away privileges) which can be more of a cooperative arrangement.

Chula Vista · 10-31-2016, 11:55 PM

As soon as a parent turns to studies, reports, findings, etc. to guide them on how to raise a child they become a puppet to data.

We went off our own instincts and personal experiences as to how to, and how not to raise our kids.

Disclaimer: I did read Dr. Spock's world renowned Baby Book before Sherri was born since I was only 23 and didn't have a clue as to how to properly care for an infant. And I did read quite a bit to help me deal with Michael's issues since I also had no experience with how to handle such a challenging illness. But that was only in the past 7 years or so once things became apparent.

Other than that it was all instinct.

Little side story: When me and my older sister were around 8 and 10-ish our grandparents took us to a cabin in the woods by a lake for a couple of days.

Grandparents would have been late 60s early 70s by then.We were let outside to play and thought it would be funny to hide on them. We let them search for us for like a 20 minutes before coming out. We nearly gave them both a heart attack cause they thought we'd drowned, got snatched, or were lost in the woods.

My grandfather cut a switch from the nearest tree and we both got a number of whacks with it. Hurt like bloody hell and made us both cry, but in hindsight we totally deserved it for nearly killing them.

DwnWthVwls · 10-31-2016, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xurtio

"The current research investigated the possible link between harsh physical punishment (ie, pushing, grabbing, shoving, slapping, hitting) in the absence of more severe child maltreatment (ie, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, physical neglect, emotional neglect, exposure to intimate partner violence) and Axis I and II mental disorders."

Yeh, I read the abstract cause I don't have time right now to go through the whole article, but frequency of harsh physical punishment has to be a factor, and if it wasn't even measured than it needs to be explored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

As soon as a parent turns to studies, reports, findings, etc. to guide them on how to raise a child they become a puppet to data.

Appeal to nature fallacy if I've ever heard one. Gaining factual knowledge is never a bad thing for decision making. As you said, it's a tool to GUIDE, not the end all be all of child raising. You could have done a better job. Everyone can, people often just lack the humility to admit it.

Xurtio · 11-01-2016, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

As soon as a parent turns to studies, reports, findings, etc. to guide them on how to raise a child they become a puppet to data.

We went off our own instincts and personal experiences as to how to, and how not to raise our kids.

Disclaimer: I did read Dr. Spock's world renowned Baby Book before Sherri was born since I was only 23 and didn't have a clue as to how to properly care for an infant. And I did read quite a bit to help me deal with Michael's issues since I also had no experience with how to handle such a challenging illness. But that was only in the past 7 years or so once things became apparent.

Other than that it was all instinct.

Little side story: When me and my older sister were around 8 and 10-ish our grandparents took us to a cabin in the woods by a lake for a couple of days.

Grandparents would have been late 60s early 70s by then.We were let outside to play and thought it would be funny to hide on them. We let them search for us for like a 20 minutes before coming out. We nearly gave them both a heart attack cause they thought we'd drowned, got snatched, or were lost in the woods.

My grandfather cut a switch from the nearest tree and we both got a number of whacks with it. Hurt like bloody hell and made us both cry, but in hindsight we totally deserved it for nearly killing them.

Well... if you want anecdotes. I vandalized and stole things regularly as an adolescent - never got caught, never got punished. But I stopped, because of a new peer group and the example hey set, not anything my parents were doing.

And I was never spanked by my parents. I was spanked by a babysitter for starting an orgy as a 12yo with other 12yos, and I grew up to be a swinger with my wife, still attending orgies.

DwnWthVwls · 11-01-2016, 12:06 AM

^That last sentence haha.. Glad you fixed those typos, thought you were a pedo at 12.

View Poll Results: Physical punishment aganist children. Acceptable or Unacceptable?
Acceptable	50	56.82%
Unacceptable	38	43.18%
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10-31-2016, 11:52 PM	#646 (permalink)
Xurtio Brain Licker Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 1,083	Also, let's not forget the other half of the argument. Is spanking actually effective? "Why is spanking ineffective for changing behavior in the longterm? Approaching this from a behaviorist perspective, conditioning by punishment (pain) requires that the consequence always occur immediately after every instance. When you touch a hot stove with a bare hand, you get burned, period. This does not occur with the behaviors parents spank for—parents are often not around to see them or are not willing or able to spank immediately afterwards" https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...s-bad-all-kids And of course, this should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with operant conditioning. Punishment isn't very effecive in the first place, but it also feeds you vs. me mentality. Punishment of course shouldn't be confused with negative reinforcement (taking away privileges) which can be more of a cooperative arrangement. __________________ H̓̇̅̉yͤ͏mͬ͂ͧn͑̽̽̌ͪ̑͐͟o̴͊̈́͑̇m͛͌̓ͦ̑aͫ̽ͤ̇n̅̎͐̒ͫ͐c̆ͯͫ̋ ̔̃́eͯ͒rͬͬ̄҉

10-31-2016, 11:55 PM	#647 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	As soon as a parent turns to studies, reports, findings, etc. to guide them on how to raise a child they become a puppet to data. We went off our own instincts and personal experiences as to how to, and how not to raise our kids. Disclaimer: I did read Dr. Spock's world renowned Baby Book before Sherri was born since I was only 23 and didn't have a clue as to how to properly care for an infant. And I did read quite a bit to help me deal with Michael's issues since I also had no experience with how to handle such a challenging illness. But that was only in the past 7 years or so once things became apparent. Other than that it was all instinct. Little side story: When me and my older sister were around 8 and 10-ish our grandparents took us to a cabin in the woods by a lake for a couple of days. Grandparents would have been late 60s early 70s by then.We were let outside to play and thought it would be funny to hide on them. We let them search for us for like a 20 minutes before coming out. We nearly gave them both a heart attack cause they thought we'd drowned, got snatched, or were lost in the woods. My grandfather cut a switch from the nearest tree and we both got a number of whacks with it. Hurt like bloody hell and made us both cry, but in hindsight we totally deserved it for nearly killing them. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”