It's an arrogant question to be posed by a theist since a theist can offer no proof for the existence of god. Saying "my faith tells me it's correct" is a complete cop out because you're claiming belief in magical things, that I would consider highly improbable almost to the point of impossibility, based only on the grounds that you believe it to be true. I'm not saying you don't have the right to believe that however I have the right to say it's unfounded (which it is.) So how about before you attack anyone for pretending to be an enlightened adolescent charlatan you acknowledge the fact that your argument is ultimately an unprovable and baseless one whereas the belief in secular values, theories and the scientific process isn't.

that doesn't help, because your still referring to something very ambiguous.

I don't really think he's ambiguous. He's referring to the biblical/literal God of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

Well, it's the old proverb: "If you're going to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk."

Unlike atheists, I don't claim faith to be universal. Faith is a choice, fact isn't

I'm not sure what to say then :/

Just straight up, the existence of God or not I guess

There are more possible answers than you realize.

well that's just phooey nonsense.

Then explain how a man can survive his own death. Explain how a man can build an boat and fit every species that exists now (evolution isn't real after all) and has become extinct in the past 5000 years on this boat in addition to a family that only a short less than 5000 years later spawned enough to create billions of descendants. Explain how this same man could live well past his mid-hundreds. Explain how the Earth is only 6000 years old. Explain every claim in the Bible that goes against what we know about how the universe, and more specifically the planet earth, operates. Why don't you prove to me, either empirically or logically, the existence of god and then explain to me why this all powerful being would have any interest in the human race and why he would want to punish them based on trite issues that he has deemed "moral or immoral." Maybe once you can do this I'll stop treating the views of Christians as such a joke.

Can't we all just agree to ignore the ridiculous parts of the Bible? Obviously the parts that are true are the parts that speak to you. How's this for a definition of God: "God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him" (1 Jn 4:16)

it's all about reading between the lines. look past the extravagances that are there to pull you in and see where they're pulling you.

The problem with that though is when you ignore the ridiculous parts of the Bible you're largely ignoring the systematic religious side of it; which is all I've ever had a problem with.

nice.

Alot of what you said is represented figuratively in the Bible

Plus, all these 'facts' are more than effective in proving who has faith and who doesn't. It's part of His Plan :)
You think anyone has the mind capacity to do that? God wouldn't be much if we could easily understand his motives, would he?

And where's all the Christians on these boards? :mad:

All these atheists and agnostics think they're so non-conformist, when in fact all I see in today's youth are non-believers :finger:

Agreed, I see far more good then bad coming from religion. Does it bother you all so much that people can have faith and waste a Sunday morning?

People seem to like getting hung up on the nut cases that spawn from religion as well, the molesting priests for example?

Well how about we compare that to the number of non-believers that commit crimes?

Really? So Jesus surviving his own death, which is a belief at the very heart of Christianity is just figurative?

You keep using the same cookie cutter taught in Sunday school cop out answers. "It's faith!" "It's part of his plan!" It amuses me how much you demand of my arguments but how you little you offer in return.

Let me get this straight, you're shocked that I would demand that of you yet you demand the very same thing of me despite the fact that I claim no belief. Makes perfect sense.

A generalization; I see just as many wannabe nihilistic atheists as I do sheep like Christians.

Probably because the Catholic church has try and hide these cases (and there are very very many) and move the Priests around to avoid investigation on the matter. It's a very sick thing they're doing and the fact you're trying to dismiss it as just a "few nutcases" is disingenuous.

Where's your source for that?

We scared them away with our superior intellect

Perhaps there's something more to it than the pursuit of non-comformity then.

I said alot, not all of what you said. The Earth being 6,000 years old for example. I believe when it says in the Bible, "on the first day... second day... etc" it's using days to symbolize years and years, you see what I'm saying?

Well I don't know what else to say, besides it being the very foundation of Christian belief. You can't avoid it when discussing Christianity

Sure it's a generalization, but I wasn't speaking on your behalf, more the atheists I know who live by fact but can't present it when I ask for proof of God's existence. Just a random, frustrated comment thrown in to vent. :D



They hide it because they want to set a good example. Shockingly enough, there are phonies who pretend to follow the Lord. Their actions will have consequences in the form of divine retribution



Don't have one, that's why I edited that part out :D

However, based on purely observation I still agree with what I said

I understand you say you don't have to prove anything because it's a matter of faith, but how can you claim someone who doesn't believe has to prove the non-existence when you don't have to prove the existence?

I'm not going to do this point for point thing as apparently it annoys many people. Religion can lay no claims to morality though; it existed before the advent of monotheism. You can't look at a murderer and go "well he was an atheist" and leave it at that. There were other ideas operative there that drove him to murder, be they greed or envy. I'm so sick of Evangelicals looking at secularists and claiming them to be immoral. I've never heard of a murder driven by skeptical inquiry. I have however heard of the crusades.

Secondly your arguments are all some of the most arrogant I've heard. Not only all they are faith based and anecdotal, as opposed to fact based but they're vague and can be applied to anything. I can tell you right now that I think you're Mary Tofts reincarnated and you've returned to this life to try and atone for your previous sins of deception. I can tell you that is a metaphysical claim and I have no proof for it because it's faith based. Now why don't you prove to me that I am wrong.

As stated before, Atheists base everything they do off facts. They say God doesn't exist because there's no evidence of his existence.

But to say God doesn't exist, you have to be sure of it right? That means you need facts to support his non-existance, and we all know atheists and facts are a match made in heaven (or whatever atheists consider a utopia)

Atheists are smart enough to realize Utopia would be a worse hell to endure.

I'm not sure I'm an atheist per say, but no, you can never be sure of anything like that, and that goes for both sides of the fence; one who doesn't believe can't be 100% certain there is no God, and one who does can't be 100% certain there is because we will never know. Only if you choose to never question yourself and your own beliefs can you be "certain," which would be a big flaw if you ask me. I just think it's extremely improbable because the basis for God would be of a supernatural phenomenon, which I just find extremely unlikely. I see no reason to believe it.

I think this is kind of on the side, but is there evidence for his existence? Also, what made you have this faith? There must've been something that made you believe, which in and of itself would be your "evidence."

I guess this doesn't really apply to me because I don't claim to know things that can't be known definitively.

All I'm saying about Christianity is that it guides people down the right path, lots of people who could've done very bad things have chosen faith instead (I should know, I've talked to people who were thinking suicidally). People who don't have faith obviously won't use religion as justification, as their is no set principles for non-believing

I am Catholic, but I don't believe I need to justify my faith to anybody. If you believe in something, people should not be able to persecute you because of it. I am comfortable letting others know that I have faith in God, it's actually a really wonderful thing from my perspective as you don't feel so alone in the world. Ethan darling, the world can be a lonely place. :) But its great that you can formulate your own opinions on here without losing the plot. Some people on here are useless at getting points across.

But it goes two ways, you must realize that. Not everyone who chooses Christianity goes down the right path. I know a lot of Christians who judge endlessly, and do very negative things, especially to "non-believers." What you're saying about religion saving people can happen with any belief system, but it can always go more then one way.

Also, religion is the biggest cause of war in history if I'm not mistaken.

No not the biggest, but nonetheless many, many have died uselessly because of it.

That isn't all you're saying. You're also making arrogant and bigoted remarks in regards to nonbelievers. I do love have you've changed you're tune though. I'd still be interested to hear you disprove that you're not a reincarnate personality though.

This I think is the most off-putting aspect to Christianity for me. It's that holier-than-thou attitude that a lot of Christians have that they somehow have better morals, better judgement, and as an extension are better people than me because I don't believe in God.

I know TONS of people who proclaim to be devout christians, and they are some of the most dishonest, mean-spirited destructive people I've ever come into contact with. Christianity doesn't "save" people. I would not be a better person if I were a Christian, I would not be better off, I would not have an easier life.

I'd like you to clarify what you mean by "there is no set principles for non-believing." The way I understand it, you think that people who don't believe in God lack a system of principals and morals. I'm really tempted to go off on that but I'll give you a chance to clarify before I do.

To continue your point Jibber, I will add that it is well known that people who are unreligious often still hold morals and principles very highly, in regards to living life without seeming completely selfish, having dignity and respect for yourself and others, etc. Morals are a major aspect of Christianity, but are often abused and used to make others feel unworthy and always in debt to their faith. It's about finding middle ground, and being influenced from wise role models to decide how you want to live your life and treat others. Paris Hilton is not a good example of this. Ha.

Exactly, but I've run into too many christians who honestly believe that non-christians are inherently immoral because they do not have God guiding them.

I think spirituality and religion can be a good thing, it's just not something I've ever been exposed to, or ever felt the need for. What someone believes is their own business, it's just when I get fed a long tirade about how empty my life is and how deprived I am and how I'm going to go to hell for not accepting Jesus as my lord and savior that I get a bit annoyed.

The Religion debate, the God debate whatever. It will never end, we're all running around in one pig pen pushing eachother into the mud only to slide and topple into it ourselves. The same points, the same outrages, will we ever shut the **** up and look around for once?

It's pretty much as real as you make it out to be. Factually, it's accurate in some aspects I think, but some of it's a little metaphorical or stuff.

If you don't want to discuss it or read the discussions on it then don't open threads on it.

How do you describe the wind?

Windy.

Haha, but you can't really describe it can you? Because it's all about what you feel not what you see, not what you can observe. The little you can observe is the obvious sight of objects of lighter mass and weight being carried off. And you can explain where wind comes from, but can you describe the sensation, can you give it a definate shape?

No, and perhaps that's the point.

Moving air.

But what is moving air? That doesn't tell us anything, what is air? What description can you give to encompass the sensation and character of wind?

That's completely understandable for you to feel that way, and I suppose by how you said that it's someones own business what they believe, it also works for those who don't believe. My advice is don't let the bastards grind you down (metaphorically), you know that it's your decision and if others don't agree then that's their problem. I still think it's wonderful though when others do find a spiritual path, but everyone's life story is different and people can change. :)

Asking someone to describe a physical sensation in visual terms is like asking someone to describe what an object looks like in terms of smell. It's a non sequitur that doesn't really make any kind of case for anything.

Farts? :laughing: