Fruitonica

JJJ's metaphor was illustrating the value of potential. If, after nine months a shoe box can produce a million dollars, without any further actions taken by you, then it is a fucking valuable shoe box.

Your egg/sperm argument is semantics. You said yourself, there are degrees of potential and a fetus has an incredibly larger potential to become a human being than an egg or sperm, the process is already underway. So if people choose to value the potential of a fetus, your facts don't actually devalue that. It's just an ethical choice.

To be clear, I'm pro choice.

Hesher

There is value in potential but it is not the same as the result. A shoebox that is technically capable of holding a million dollars in bills (a very large shoebox to be sure) is still a shoebox until it contains a million dollars.

I see what you're saying, and you're the first person to phrase in a way that is clear to me. I guess I am comfortable with the knowledge that any value someone ascribes to a fetus before viability is an "ethical decision" of theirs and not a reflection of the technical value of a cluster of cells. Either way, the law does not prohibit killing most animals, no matter how attached you may be to them, and from a purely technical perspective, a pre-viability fetus is roughly analogous to any other non-human organism. So from the point of view of the law, there is no obstacle to pre-20th week abortion.

Guybrush

I think religion imay also be a big stick in the wheels when it comes to abortions. Although I can't remember anyone bringing it up, but I think the commandment "you shall not murder" (f.ex) must be a reason for some pro-lifers.

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Hesher

Killing a non-sentient organism isn't murder anymore than using antibiotic hand soap is genocide, but then again, logic doesn't really enter into the plane of religion.

Son of JayJamJah

Not everyone sees things like you and of course this is a ridiculous comparison that ignores what we have come to understand. You can argue over the value of potential all you want, but the fact is that's an argument of a very subjective nature on both sides that requires you to be ignorant of a lot to be resolute on either side.

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Hesher

What exactly does it ignore that we have come to understand?

In the eyes of the law and for medical purposes it isn't subjective.

How exactly does my opinion make me ignorant? As far as I can see, I'm the one with the information.

Son of JayJamJah

Your position\opinion is not ignorant you're refusal to acknowledge opposing points of view is.

Your are ignoring the fact that we know in all likelihood a fetus unaborted will become a human being and that that potential is as valuable as life to some people. It doesn't matter if you believe a fetus is a living being or that it's life is as valuable as developed human being.

There is nothing scientifically or logically flawed about that, it doesn't discredit your opinions based in science, but it's another equally valid perspective which you seem to ignore or dismiss because you don't share in it.

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If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

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sleepy jack

lol. I don't want to give you a sex ed. lesson but there's a bit of difference between a sperm's potential and an embryo's potential.

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Son of JayJamJah

Which members would you like to give a sex ed lesson to?

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Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

Miltamec Soundsquinaez

You don't need to. Obviously an embryo has much greater chance of becoming a human than a random sperm. I'm just saying if potential for human life is all that matters, we should treat every single sperm cell like a potential human, and never masturbate and never have sex, because you'll murder millions of innocent 'potential humans'

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