Guybrush

I have some vague understanding of that and it is true that you don't have to work as hard here to accomplish your goals (if they are reasonable goals, such as getting an education with a job to fit later on). As I hinted at in my earlier post, I've been nurtured by the state my whole life, I've gotten surgery, I've gotten a quality biology education which included trips to the north polar ice cap, driving snow scooters over glaciers and weeks spent away on fieldwork where we had dinner at restaurants every night and so on paid by the government. The apartment I live in is part paid by the government (~40% of all my cash comes from them, so they also sponsor my beer drinking and other things). They've spent a huge amount of money on me and the government will do it for my children as well.

For the government, it's an investment. When a freshly educated doctor or biologist such as me comes out of school, he will have cost the state a lot of money. However, when that doctor has kept his job and paid his taxes for X amount of years, he will become a giver. It might happen late in his career (higher education is expensive), but on average that's what happens. That's part of why the government can afford to keep this up. The wonderful thing is that it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from or how much money your family makes. You'll get a quality education for free if you want one. To me, that is freedom - it gives you many options in life that many people won't have in a country where you need money to be free.

However, it probably does make people a little lazier and a little more secure in the knowledge that there is a safety net should things go wrong. However, I also think it raises the quality of life and I think that's one of the top things of what a society should do, raise the quality of life of the people.


Of course we don't have the same ideals (american dream) as you guys do in America and neither do we have the same political history - in particular we don't have much of a cold war and history with hostility towards leftist thinking. I think historically, people in Norway have been mostly concerned about not starving and if you could put food on the table and it was your table to put it on, then that was your life goal accomplished right there. Traditionally, we've valued modesty and getting by on what you need. Our society is rich, but it's never been able to churn out the kind of extravaganza you guys have overseas so we don't know all that except from what we see on the telly.

I realize though I probably seem more red than I am and I'm probably portraying Norway as a redder country too. I'm for a regulated market. I don't like the idea of the private sector entering schools and health care and I'm currently for protecting our agriculture from having to compete with outside markets (which is why Norway is not part of the EU, our farmers wouldn't make it), but shoes, books, CDs and other things I don't mind - bring on the competition. I believe it's important that people should be able to accomplish things and be rewarded for ambition, motivation and hard work, but I also believe in the government as a provider and nurturer of the people with free education and health care where providing the best service, not making money, is the number 1 priority. I'm sorta for the golden middle road although it might percieved a little more to the left over here than it is in America.

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Something Completely Different

mr dave

just curious about your education setup here. i live in canada and we get called 'socialist' often enough. when it comes to education pretty much anyone can get a government student loan. i can only think of one 3 other people besides myself who paid them off. one person i went to school with takes pride in the fact that he HAS NOT MADE A SINGLE PAYMENT in 9 years since graduating (he'd also be cheering the wealth redistribution like mad in this thread).

do you have to pay extra taxes when you finish school in order to cover your education or is it just part of the package of being an independent adult in norway? is it something everyone has to pay into regardless of whether or not they continue their education past high school? just curious here.

personally i don't like the idea of giving someone a free ride (like the example above). like so many people have mentioned it seems to be more of a social philosophical change that would have to occur more than an actual economic change. thing is for a lot of us (especially those with humble beginnings and proud upbringings) having to hand over a portion of the gains we've made through the work we've done for people who only want to help themselves is a VERY bitter pill to swallow, especially when they're holding up an altruistic front like it's for the benefit of everyone and not at all because of envy of their neighbors.

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i am the universe

Guybrush

You have to pay off your loan, but you're not taxed any different.

You should read my last post, it goes a little bit more into detail about how things are over here. A potential problem with a capitalist society in which you get classes and wealth inequity is if you need money to get an education, that may create a lower class unable to get the same high education as the upper classes. That could have many negative implications for society so I think it's better when everyone has a chance to become whatever they want, regardless of the wealth of their families. It gives people freedom to be what they want as well as create a well educated society with people of professions that will benefit it.

As I wrote in my previous post, you don't get it for "nothing". I mean that's part why taxes tend to get higher when you get more socialistic. The government nurtures you, gives you an education, food on your plate while you learn a trade or whatever and eventually you start making up for that by paying taxes (also explains why the government is not "stealing" from you, you're paying back some of what society already gave you and will give your children).

A political system that gave free education and health care for nothing in return wouldn't work at all so the idea is rather dumb. I know you all know this, but I've seen "getting stuff for free" tossed around a few times now and it's not like that.

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Something Completely Different

Son of JayJamJah

Really good post Lucifer Sam (Top of page)

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Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

IamAlejo

Sorry to bring this to the top but the news of Canada lowering it's corp tax rate got me remembering some posts on here. [US economic rant begin]

The problem a lot of posters here as well as the politicians in the US have failed to realize is that higher tax rates do not necessarily equal higher tax revenues. Instead we have politicians who continually play the populist message of trying to ensure that corporations aren't screwing the little guy [the middle class], and we are far more likely to see higher tax rates on these corps than any reductions for these corps/people that truly drive the economy.

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