Is it just me, or does heaven sound like a really horrible place?

**Janszoon** · 09-16-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo boo

So heaven is a giant Gamecube?

And Satan is that big fat guy from your video constantly poking it with a broom handle.

Guybrush · 09-16-2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo boo

So heaven is a giant Gamecube?

Pretty much - only containing a city and it has ~2400 kilometre long sides.

Regarding hell, are there any good descriptions of that in the bible?

**Janszoon** · 09-16-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

Pretty much - only made of gold and ~2400 kilometre long sides.

Regarding hell, are there any good descriptions of that in the bible?

I believe hell is a place where you are forced to discuss politics with the people who post comments on YouTube videos. At least that's was it says in the Bible.

boo boo · 09-16-2009, 12:13 PM

As in the geography? Not that I can think of.

But yeah, the bible is chop full of hell references.

The old testament's sole purpose was to scare the sh*t out of everyone, let them know that god is an egotistical assh*le who is not to be f*cked with, and while the new testament could be considered more optimistic, a lot of it still has to do with how anyone who dosen't share these values will burn.

Guybrush · 09-16-2009, 12:15 PM

Dante's Divine Comedy is quite fascinating in it's description of hell and I think I read somewhere that it was based on the idea of hell in Italy at the time it was written, the early 1300s.

The Divine Comedy also contains a completely different description of heaven than the cube-town idea, but it sort of admits that what it's describing then is Dante's subjective experience of it rather than an objective and true description.

NumberNineDream · 09-16-2009, 12:19 PM

I get claustrophobic when I think of heaven. Just the thought of "eternity". So we're there, then what? I think it's best if I pass through the purgatory. At least there's different streps there. Or any kind of evolution.

Static eternity isn't my style.

boo boo · 09-16-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NumberNineDream

Static eternity isn't my style.

Agreed, not only does the aforementioned description of heaven sound really unpleasant to me, but the idea that you're spending all of eternity in a giant cube (what some Christians think of as a giant Thomas Kinkade painting) is just about the scariest thing ever.

~~The Unfan~~ · 09-16-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

Regarding hell, are there any good descriptions of that in the bible?

The best descriptions I can think of are

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 16:22-28

22 the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

and this has bits and peices of description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelation 20:1-15

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And some random off verses like

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew 13:42

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Also, the location is in Earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers 16:32-33

32And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them.:

anticipation · 09-16-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

Considering how little is really known about these beliefs, you seem to be making some sketchy assumptions I think. I agree that as far as I know, morality wasn't as central a theme in greek mythology, but that doesn't mean it wasn't at all important.

From Wikipedia's article on Greek Underworld :

So after dying, you are judged and that decides where in the Underworld you end up. It doesn't say here that the blessed are necessarily those of strong moral fiber, but there are stories like that of Sisyphus who was an "evil" king who got sent to Tartarus where he famously had to spend eternity rolling a boulder up a hillside. It's a story about an evil man who got punished by Zeus and that implies moral values.

The only story about Sisyphus I've heard is the one where he tricks Persephone into allowing him to return to the world of the living so he can berate his wife for improperly burying him, which he then parlays into a permanent stay, then Hades sentences him to the punishment for disobeying him. There's really no mention of Sisyphus being evil or even immoral. Greek mythology has no message other than to obey the will of the gods, which due to their anthropomorphic nature are constantly changing. The gods never establish morality system or instill a sense of ethical responsibility to my knowledge. Their society was entierly patriarchal in nature, so whatever man did was essentially accepted by society.

I will admit my knowledge of Greek mystics is lacking though.

Guybrush · 09-16-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anticipation

The only story about Sisyphus I've heard is the one where he tricks Persephone into allowing him to return to the world of the living so he can berate his wife for improperly burying him, which he then parlays into a permanent stay, then Hades sentences him to the punishment for disobeying him. There's really no mention of Sisyphus being evil or even immoral. Greek mythology has no message other than to obey the will of the gods, which due to their anthropomorphic nature are constantly changing. The gods never establish morality system or instill a sense of ethical responsibility to my knowledge. Their society was entierly patriarchal in nature, so whatever man did was essentially accepted by society.

I will admit my knowledge of Greek mystics is lacking though.

What can I say? Then I don't think you know the full story of Sisyphus. Since I'm no authority on greek mythology either, I'll just have to provide you with some sources.

Doing a quick google search on Sisyphus predictably gave a hit on his wikipedia article. Here's an extract from that :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Sisyphus was son of the king Aeolus of Thessaly and Enarete, and the founder and first king Ephyra (Corinth). He was the father of Glaucus by the nymph Merope, and the grandfather of Bellerophon.
Sisyphus promoted navigation and commerce, but was avaricious and deceitful, violating the laws of hospitality by killing travelers and guests. He took pleasure in these killings because they allowed him to maintain his dominant position. From Homer onwards, Sisyphus was famed as the craftiest of men. He seduced his niece, took his brother's throne and betrayed Zeus' secrets. Zeus then ordered Thanatos (Death personified) to chain Sisyphus in Tartarus.

After this, he uses trickery to escape, something you've heard of - but is at last cursed by Zeus (not Hades) with the task of pushing the boulder.

From the article about Tartarus ;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

According to Plato (c. 400), Rhadamanthus, Aeacus and Minos were the judges of the dead and chose who went to Tartarus. Rhadamanthus judged Asian souls; Aeacus judged European souls and Minos was the deciding vote and judge of the Greek.
Plato also proposes the concept that sinners were cast under the ground to be punished in accordance with their sins in the Myth of Er. Cronus (the ruler of the Titans) was thrown down into the pits of Tartarus by his children.

The Myth of Er which is also referred to here is a story from Plato's Republic dialogue which "introduces the idea that moral people are rewarded and immoral people punished after death". I don't know it well, but I'm assuming that such ideas could have been present in greek mythology before written down in ~400BC.

I completely agree that morals are not as important - the gods themselves do all sorts of wrong and are often vain, angry and arrogant .. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a factor at all.

09-16-2009, 12:15 PM	#35 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Dante's Divine Comedy is quite fascinating in it's description of hell and I think I read somewhere that it was based on the idea of hell in Italy at the time it was written, the early 1300s. The Divine Comedy also contains a completely different description of heaven than the cube-town idea, but it sort of admits that what it's describing then is Dante's subjective experience of it rather than an objective and true description. __________________ Something Completely Different

09-16-2009, 12:19 PM	#36 (permalink)
NumberNineDream Blue Bleezin' Blind Drunk Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The land of the largest wine glass (aka Lebanon) Posts: 2,200	I get claustrophobic when I think of heaven. Just the thought of "eternity". So we're there, then what? I think it's best if I pass through the purgatory. At least there's different streps there. Or any kind of evolution. Static eternity isn't my style. __________________ Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats?Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Do bats eat cats? Welcome to the Black Lodge Last edited by NumberNineDream; 09-16-2009 at 12:45 PM.