Do you believe in ghosts?

duga · 03-08-2011, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I guess I don't really see the difference.

It sounds like you're talking specifically about Christians, not religious people in general. But even if you restrict the discussion to just them I think you'd find plenty who believe in ghosts, not to mentioned the fact that all of them believe in the holy ghost.

Janszoon, you are a smart guy but this really is an over-generalization. You don't see a difference? Really? So now you are lumping me in with the religious fanatics of the world? There is a huge difference. Atheists and theists alike can surely agree we are conscious beings. Philosophers across history have tried to figure that mystery out... Many of them atheists. I won't speak for everyone but when I say ghost I mean a phenomenon that involves someone who has passed away... Be it caused by a massive release of energy or an actual "soul". The point is we don't know what causes these things, but they certainly don't have to have a religious connection. It's just a human connection.

I think you and RVCA are focusing way too much on semantics because I seem to be having a very hard time explaining I believe these things happen without coming off as a religious nut.

CanwllCorfe · 03-08-2011, 10:52 AM

Yeah that's what I'm saying. I can maybe see a faint similarity, but not really. I don't see how they're even related, let alone not being able to tell the difference. That's just ludicrous. Armin van Buuren and The Horrorist both make Electronic music. Also, they are both people.

duga · 03-08-2011, 11:05 AM

And for the record Canwllcorfe is right, Christians aren't supposed to believe in ghosts. It negates the idea of heaven and hell and a final judgement. The word ghost in holy ghost refers to a holy soul. That is not how we are using it.

NSW · 03-08-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

And for the record Canwllcorfe is right, Christians aren't supposed to believe in ghosts. It negates the idea of heaven and hell and a final judgement. The word ghost in holy ghost refers to a holy soul. That is not how we are using it.

Actually, this really depends on what "branch" of Christianity you're talking about. Some believe in a purgatory or middle ground which would explain the existance of ghosts. Others don't even believe inhell as a place of torment after death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

The reason I ask is that I've generally found the people who can't understand why someone might be annoyed by religion are people who've never experienced being nonreligious in a religious society.

Has every religious person I've ever met been some horrible person? No, of course not. One of the most important people in my life, my grandmother, was quite religious. My wife is also pretty religious. I myself, at one time, was even considering going to divinity school to become a minister. But none of that particularly enables me to ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of my fellow Americans take huge dumps on nonbelievers on a very regular basis.

Don't get me wrong...I DO understand why people get annoyed with religion and over zealous types. I only wished to understand the level of annoyance you show, since you seem eager to attack religion when the subject comes up.

Also, I agee with you in that I don't see much difference in religion vs superstition vs beleif in spirits...most of the time (no, not always) these things go hand in hand.

**Janszoon** · 03-08-2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonsubmissivewife

Don't get me wrong...I DO understand why people get annoyed with religion and over zealous types. I only wished to understand the level of annoyance you show, since you seem eager to attack religion when the subject comes up.

See, no offense to you personally, but this is the kind of thing that bugs me. If I criticize religion or even simply voice my disagreement with it, it's viewed as an "attack" because there's this weird cultural deal where religion is supposed to be this untouchable thing that everyone walk on eggshells around. Meanwhile, criticism of non-belief is perfectly fine and, oddly, not viewed as an attack.

RVCA · 03-08-2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

Janszoon, you are a smart guy but this really is an over-generalization. You don't see a difference? Really? So now you are lumping me in with the religious fanatics of the world? There is a huge difference. Atheists and theists alike can surely agree we are conscious beings. Philosophers across history have tried to figure that mystery out... Many of them atheists. I won't speak for everyone but when I say ghost I mean a phenomenon that involves someone who has passed away... Be it caused by a massive release of energy or an actual "soul". The point is we don't know what causes these things, but they certainly don't have to have a religious connection. It's just a human connection.

I think you and RVCA are focusing way too much on semantics because I seem to be having a very hard time explaining I believe these things happen without coming off as a religious nut.

Semantics? You are supporting dualism, no matter how hard you try to disguise it. I think there is a very fine line between religion and spirituality, but I am equally skeptical to both.

**Janszoon** · 03-08-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

Janszoon, you are a smart guy but this really is an over-generalization. You don't see a difference? Really? So now you are lumping me in with the religious fanatics of the world? There is a huge difference. Atheists and theists alike can surely agree we are conscious beings. Philosophers across history have tried to figure that mystery out... Many of them atheists. I won't speak for everyone but when I say ghost I mean a phenomenon that involves someone who has passed away... Be it caused by a massive release of energy or an actual "soul". The point is we don't know what causes these things, but they certainly don't have to have a religious connection. It's just a human connection.

I think you and RVCA are focusing way too much on semantics because I seem to be having a very hard time explaining I believe these things happen without coming off as a religious nut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe

Yeah that's what I'm saying. I can maybe see a faint similarity, but not really. I don't see how they're even related, let alone not being able to tell the difference. That's just ludicrous. Armin van Buuren and The Horrorist both make Electronic music. Also, they are both people.

I guess I tend to view matters of life after death and souls and whatnot as falling under the purview of religion. I'm honestly pretty surprised that that seems like a strange notion to the two of you.

duga · 03-08-2011, 04:35 PM

I'm not surprised by the notion, I'm just trying to get across that that is not how I view these things.

And again with the semantics, RVCA. You aren't understanding what I'm saying at all. The whole point of the argument we just had was to show you I DON'T support dualism. Consciousness and the human mind has nothing to do with that (in the way I view things, anyway). Something obviously happens when we die, whether it is blinking out of existence or ascending to some higher plane. I'm not making any assumptions in that area. I'm simply noting these phenomena exists, as I've witnessed some things myself. It could be ANYTHING. I've mentioned the mind's energy several times and how that may have an effect on the surroundings. I made no mention of where I think the mind goes once death occurs.

I hope this clears it up. The only thing I want out of this discussion right now is for you guys to see that I'm not referring to souls or making any sort of religious connection.

NSW · 03-08-2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

See, no offense to you personally, but this is the kind of thing that bugs me. If I criticize religion or even simply voice my disagreement with it, it's viewed as an "attack" because there's this weird cultural deal where religion is supposed to be this untouchable thing that everyone walk on eggshells around. Meanwhile, criticism of non-belief is perfectly fine and, oddly, not viewed as an attack.

No offense taken.

I apologize if the word "attack" seemed a bit harsh, but I suppose I felt comfortable using it because I actually would consider it to be just as much of an attack in the reverse scenario. But my aim wasn't to offend, I really just wanted to understand your aggressive stance on the matter a little better.

CanwllCorfe · 03-08-2011, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I guess I tend to view matters of life after death and souls and whatnot as falling under the purview of religion. I'm honestly pretty surprised that that seems like a strange notion to the two of you.

I am a Buddhist satanist. I am offend.

03-08-2011, 10:52 AM	#82 (permalink)
CanwllCorfe Quiet Man in the Corner Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Pocono Mountains Posts: 2,480	Yeah that's what I'm saying. I can maybe see a faint similarity, but not really. I don't see how they're even related, let alone not being able to tell the difference. That's just ludicrous. Armin van Buuren and The Horrorist both make Electronic music. Also, they are both people. __________________ Your eyes were never yet let in to see the majesty and riches of the mind, but dwell in darkness; for your God is blind.

03-08-2011, 11:05 AM	#83 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	And for the record Canwllcorfe is right, Christians aren't supposed to believe in ghosts. It negates the idea of heaven and hell and a final judgement. The word ghost in holy ghost refers to a holy soul. That is not how we are using it. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

03-08-2011, 04:35 PM	#88 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	I'm not surprised by the notion, I'm just trying to get across that that is not how I view these things. And again with the semantics, RVCA. You aren't understanding what I'm saying at all. The whole point of the argument we just had was to show you I DON'T support dualism. Consciousness and the human mind has nothing to do with that (in the way I view things, anyway). Something obviously happens when we die, whether it is blinking out of existence or ascending to some higher plane. I'm not making any assumptions in that area. I'm simply noting these phenomena exists, as I've witnessed some things myself. It could be ANYTHING. I've mentioned the mind's energy several times and how that may have an effect on the surroundings. I made no mention of where I think the mind goes once death occurs. I hope this clears it up. The only thing I want out of this discussion right now is for you guys to see that I'm not referring to souls or making any sort of religious connection. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...