Gender Segregation In Schools

VEGANGELICA · 03-02-2010, 04:17 PM

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Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

My best friend growing up was...gasp!...a BOY!!!....and we made mud bombs and played cops and robbers together and loved smashing pennies and drawing pictures. He'd draw military planes; I'd draw horses...but we still had fun drawing together and learning from each other.

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Originally Posted by NumberNineDream

Definitely.
I grew up playing football in the street or hide and seek in some abandoned building with my two older brothers, and I was never able to understand how girls can be so boring with their little dolls.
I still to this moment, don't enjoy anything thought of as "girly", though I can't say I'd enjoy the stereotypical car obsession males have.

Other than the physical appearance, I can't say there's much difference.

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Originally Posted by kayleigh.

This exactly I was a little tomboy, all my friends were male. I always played on scaffolding, played football at the pitch in my village, climbed trees alot, made dens, went bike runs, the boyish things I did are endless. I'd have been ****ing miserable in a class full of girls.

Kayleigh...notice how you, NumberNineDream, and I as girls all did similar fun activities, so I'd say it makes the most sense to conclude that climbing trees, playing football, making dens and mud bombs, playing cops and robbers, and smashing pennies *are* girl behaviors. We were girls acting like girls. How can a behavior done by a girl *not* be a girl behavior?

I see someone has taught you that there are certain behaviors that are "boyish" such that you would call yourself a "tomboy." The reality is that you were simply participating in a variety of behaviors that girls can enjoy. There are not "boy" behaviors and "girl" behaviors. This is one reason I find segregating classrooms by sex to be such a bad idea: it places false limitations on people.

FETCHER. · 03-02-2010, 05:55 PM

I definitely get what you're saying. Those were considered "boy" games, and the other girls would play ****ty things like skipping and "dollies".

Burning Down · 03-02-2010, 08:09 PM

I was always into the boy stuff as well when I was a kid. Probably because I was an only child for 9 years before my brother came along. My dad would always take me camping, he taught me how to sail a boat, how to swim, and lots of other stuff. As well, when I was growing up, most of the neighbourhood kids were boys. So if I wanted to play with the neighbourhood kids, it would always be road hockey, skateboarding, soccer, etc.

ProggyMan · 03-02-2010, 08:16 PM

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Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Yes, we do agree, Proggyman, that segregating kids in public schools based on sex is a bad idea (you wrote, "As is pointed out by Sax's critics there's too much overlap to just stick boys and girls into two different groups like that").
\

Of course, although I do think we need a more individualized education system and that the system promoted by Sax might actually be better than our current system. Not an endorsements of his ideas though.

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Where I think we differ, though, is on the degree to which people's behaviors can be predicted by whether they have XX or XY chromosomes.

Your chromosomes have no effect on anything but the amount of testosterone, estrogen and a few other chemicals you're exposed to in the womb and during puberty.

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For example, both males *AND* females make testosterone. Women make testosterone in their ovaries and adrenal glands. What impact do our testosterone levels have on our behavior? That is an interesting question but very hard to answer easily. Studies of gender differences are difficult to interpret because environment has such a big influence on people's learned abilities and performance on tests. People's experiences in life (whether they end up dominant or subordinate; successful or beaten down) may affect their testosterone levels.

Males make much more (Females are more sensitive to the hormone, though nowhere near enough to balance it out), but it's more than that. Being exposed to more in the womb and during puberty has an almost irreversible effect that lessens the impact of varying testosterone levels during the course of a lifetime. For example, male dogs must be neutered before reaching puberty or they still have the aggressive nature of a normal male dog. Frankly there's no question that testosterone has a big part in determining the behavior of any animal. Just look at nature, the part of the species with more testosterone is, as far as we know, always dominant (Not male/female, but more/less testosterone).

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Also, if you measure testosterone levels in a person, this won't tell you everything, because the cells' responsiveness to hormones is important, too, in determining the effects of the hormones on the person's body and behaviors. I might have lower serum levels of testosterone than you, but that alone won't determine how affected by testosterone I am. Maybe I'm actually much more aggressive than you due to how my brain responds to my testosterone levels! Or maybe I *feel* more aggressive than you, but have developed greater Spock-like control over my emotions. (Spock was my hero when I was growing up.)

Everyone loves Spock! Very sexy in the new movie. It's true, a cell's receptiveness plays a big part. None of this I disagree with. Also some people simply have different personality types. A women could have a domineering personality and low testosterone levels. I would point out that estrogen can counteract the effects of testosterone, and women with very few exceptions have much higher levels of estrogen.

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Finally, testosterone levels don't always correlate simply with behavior, even if you do measure blood levels and cell responsiveness. You could have someone with high testosterone levels who feels and acts quite peacefully. Studies do show trends, though--I'm not denying that. Hormones do impact us, but teasing out exactly what effect they are having on our decision-making and feelings as individuals is very difficult. Just based on personal experience, I've never noticed any major difference between male and female psyches or behaviors other than the behaviors that are limited by physical things. For example, it is difficult for me to write my name in the snow with urine!

Also, I do notice emotional changes related to ovulation, but the actual emotions are ones men also have at various times. Of course, there certainly are boys and girls, men and women, who may feel very different from each other in how they think or operate. I'm just stating my own experience.

Mostly agreed, though my personal experiences have been very different, probably because I'm younger.

VEGANGELICA · 03-04-2010, 09:08 PM

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Originally Posted by ProggyMan

Everyone loves Spock! Very sexy in the new movie. It's true, a cell's receptiveness plays a big part. None of this I disagree with. Also some people simply have different personality types. A women could have a domineering personality and low testosterone levels. I would point out that estrogen can counteract the effects of testosterone, and women with very few exceptions have much higher levels of estrogen.

Mostly agreed, though my personal experiences have been very different, probably because I'm younger.

Heh-heh! Yes, Spock is great.

About people who are younger experiencing more differences between people based on gender: my guess is that this feeling is probably very common, ProggyMan. First of all, during the teen years both boys and girls are closer to the hormone changes that make them develop more obvious physical differences...and usually become more aware of these differences in each other. So, these gender differences are probably more paramount in young people's minds.

By my age, those differences don't seem so major after having related to males and females for many years primarily as people and not sexual beings. And actually I think long-term intimate relationships with the opposite sex help make the similarities between them more apparent and the differences smaller. Most of our activities during life aren't distinguishable from those of others, regardless of gender.

Plus, I read a study that might relate: if a family has boy and girl siblings, they tend to take on more "gender-biased" behaviors/dress than siblings who are the same sex. Maybe in early social situations in schools, there is a tendency for teenagers (and younger kids) to want to distinguish themselves from what is perceived as the "other" gender group...especially if there is no one encouraging them to focus on commonalities.

I've seen this separation into boy/girl camps among kids...actually at a very young age (1st grade) I've seen disparaging comments about girls (by boys). This is sad, because those negative comments, I suspect, are usually picked up from older kids, who probably get them from parents/media.

I get tired, too, of all the times I hear adults say something like, "Oh, that poor mom! She has 3 boys!" Actually, a teacher said that today to her students while I was volunteering in a classroom: a perfect example of how an adult's stereotypes about gender behavior get passed down to the next generation.

You mentioned the role of testosterone in dominance among other species. One unique feature of humans is how little dimorphism there is between males and females compared to in some species, such as in height and weight. Think of elephant seals. Yikes! So, it would make sense if the effects of testosterone on human behavior (and brain development) were also fairly minor compared to in some other species.

boo boo · 03-14-2010, 05:17 AM

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Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Definitely, a fascist worse than Hitler and Stalin combined!!!

The article asks, "But is teaching gender-specific etiquette perpetuating what some consider sexist traditions?"

The answer is simple: YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If boys are being taught to pull out chairs for girls, then the opposite should be taught, too: girls should show respect for boys by opening the door for them, etc.

The whole premise of that teacher's etiquette lessons is that women are some weak, delicate creatures who must be coddled and cherished. While it certainly isn't wrong to cherish and protect other people, and respecting others by showing you genuinely are concerned about their well-being is wonderful, to direct this behavior toward girls/women only is patronising.

The second problem with that article, boo boo, is that it assumes people in society are losing the ability to respect others. Last time I checked, back in the 1950s in the U.S., racist Jim Crow laws were alive and well, people couldn't be open about their sexuality, and women couldn't control whether or not they have children.

In my view, people are much more respectful toward others now in the U.S., at least, than in the past. I feel that the belief that there has been an increase in "disrespectfulness" toward others is a myth. Where respect really counts...in civil liberties that allow us to live and let live...people are *much* more respectful now than in the past.

Well, we're a LOT less respectful in social etiquette, but yeah, that's not as big of a deal when compared to civil rights.

Though, I do get tired of the internet and the media's sanctification of total c*ntbaggery.

I mean just look at the kind of people we are making celebrities out of right now. Walking, talking Italian stereotypes who like to kill boredom by randomly PUNCHING WOMEN IN THE MOTHERF*CKING FACE!

VEGANGELICA · 03-27-2010, 04:06 PM

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Originally Posted by boo boo

Well, we're a LOT less respectful in social etiquette, but yeah, that's not as big of a deal when compared to civil rights.

Though, I do get tired of the internet and the media's sanctification of total c*ntbaggery.

I mean just look at the kind of people we are making celebrities out of right now. Walking, talking Italian stereotypes who like to kill boredom by randomly PUNCHING WOMEN IN THE MOTHERF*CKING FACE!

Boo boo...I didn't notice your response until today! Sorry.

I agree about there being less respect in social etiquette, but that may actually reflect greater civil rights...such as greater freedom of speech, a good thing.

I also think greater impoliteness is a result of a society where people move around more so they can afford not to squelch the nasty feelings I'd say we all have, but that are unwise to expose if you have to live in some tiny town for the rest of your life and depend on the goodwill of others for your food, care, etc.

So what's this ****baggery you're referring to when you say the internet and media are sanctifying it? And who are these celebrities punching women in the face? I've missed this. I guess at least *I* am not making these walking, talking Italian stereotypes into celebrities!

But I don't really turn anyone into a celebrity, since I know even famous people are just people. *You* should be a celebrity. You'd be a fun celebrity, boo boo.

~~Harry~~ · 04-03-2010, 11:04 AM

Gender segregation and discrimination is one thing I've never truly understood at all. There are men and women in this world, and we are all people. An intelligent woman is worth no less than an intelligent male and vise versa. They should not be brought up separately or in different environments. That's just silly, if you think about it. You have a vagina so you have to play will dolls; you have a penis so you have to play football.
People should do what people are interested in in environments where they can socialise and learn from all types of people.

03-02-2010, 08:09 PM	#23 (permalink)
Burning Down The Music Guru. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Beyond the Wall Posts: 4,858	I was always into the boy stuff as well when I was a kid. Probably because I was an only child for 9 years before my brother came along. My dad would always take me camping, he taught me how to sail a boat, how to swim, and lots of other stuff. As well, when I was growing up, most of the neighbourhood kids were boys. So if I wanted to play with the neighbourhood kids, it would always be road hockey, skateboarding, soccer, etc.

04-03-2010, 11:04 AM	#28 (permalink)
~~Harry~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Leith Posts: 72	Gender segregation and discrimination is one thing I've never truly understood at all. There are men and women in this world, and we are all people. An intelligent woman is worth no less than an intelligent male and vise versa. They should not be brought up separately or in different environments. That's just silly, if you think about it. You have a vagina so you have to play will dolls; you have a penis so you have to play football. People should do what people are interested in in environments where they can socialise and learn from all types of people.