It's been close to a year... Thoughts on Obama
 

I feel with the reform that this is more than likely the first time the people were not heard, or rather not payed any attention to at all.

Let me start by saying that this does bring promise to struggling americans, but those on the boarder line will surely end up being rationed as well. My opinion on this (which is in fact mine) would be that it is going to push more americans to rely on our governments rations rather than working for a living. I personally feel this will push us closer into a socialist situation.

How? (This is opinion based Theory, All mine)

Well basically in my theory the government cannot control a free willed american as much as they will need to in order to call "All" the shots. So with our governement taxing the somewhat wealthy (who will obviously complain and look bad for it) to pay for this reform we are actually helping them gain 100% control of the low income section 8 people. How? Basically If I was to give you something for free you would like me, If I was to pay for your medical expenses you would love me, thus I would have a great deal of leverage over your thoughts and your voice, gaining control over a period of time until, I was your voice.

I'm not 100% sure how they will take out the people with very high incomes but I am positive they will. I assume some will be living beyond there means and slowly have to start settling for less over the years until finally they are in the same position as the rest of us. It may be tax hikes over and over until its unbearable or many other things.. Either way I'm just a touch curious on your thoughts and feelings in this matter since it will have a great impact on my kids and yours or eventually yours.

All ponder no proof... Just perceptions

"The mill of the gods grinds slowly, but it grinds exceedingly fine"

I VoTED GRAVEL.

You should cite your quotes... tis tis

Yeah, I love how everyone has demonized the word socialism. Just like they did with communism. Guess what, those are simply forms of government...not evil regimes bent on enslaving everyone. Communism didn't work, but it tried. You know what other form of government doesn't work? Capitalism. Just take a look at how many times our economy has collapsed in the past century. Something tells me we could do with some improvement.

It's socialism. Get over it.

Please don't lump us all in the same boat, we're not all this backwards.

And please don't act so condescending either, Canada is practically America. The superiority complex that some (see how I didn't generalize there) Canadians efface is incredibly annoying.

I'm not going to pay attention to conspiracy theories. The right likes to say that this is socialism. I like to say that we can move toward socialism without it being socialism. I don't think we've got anything close to socialism here in the U.S. because people will still die when this bill is put into effect. Far more than do in the european countries.

It was insurance reform, and I won't listen to those who champion the free market but then attempt to deny me what I pay for; that is, I pay for health care - you should be allowed to drop my coverage.

Obama isn't the Nazi's, we're not walking toward the destruction of the constitution or any of that ****. I voted for the man twice, and I stand by those votes. We're much better than we were in 07, and we're great in 09 compared to where we'd be if he'd lost.

I feel like keying all the cars in this hick state that have bumper stickers saying "impeach Obama Bin Laden".

Wtf has he done worth impeaching? It's fine if you don't agree with the guy, but if you really feel like he should be impeached you deserve a kick in the balls.

Yeah, that and trying draw some kind of connection between him and a notorious terrorist based on them having a similar first name really smacks of xenophobia to me. They might as well just have a bumper sticker that says "Bigot On Board".

I'm not even going to pretend I know any of the ins and outs of this bill, I just know it effects me as a small business owner... For the next few years I will receive a tax credit, but if I expand too much in the next 4 years I could be subject to penalties. Overall I think it has some holes, but it's a move in a positive direction [and is changeable if needed]...

This is the way I look at it...the government wants my money. They take my money. This fact is obvious every time I get a paycheck. There are a lot of people complaining that the lower class is going to be taking our tax money for healthcare and not have to work for it while we have to. Well, you know what? I don't care. I would much rather know that my tax money is going to keeping people alive rather than killing more people in several wars I don't support.

I love my home state, but there are a lot of conservatives there. Especially in the smaller southern towns.

First of all, you're generalizing. But I know what you're saying. There are SOME Americans who are afraid of change or who don't want to accept change so they respond by saying negative things about it. However, your post implies that all Canadians (and people around the world) are thinking like this. Again, you're generalizing. Like lucifer sam stated, the superiority that some Canadians feel our country has over the US is annoying. Not to mention that it's absolutely ridiculous. Canada has its flaws as well - starting with the current government, or more specifically, Stephen Harper.

I think the passing of the health care bill has really cemented Obama's legacy, whether he is re-elected in 2012 or not. The fact that this was one of the main promises on his campaign agenda and that he was able to fulfill it is amazing. Not many politicians do that.

I am going to just state the obvious fact...Americans didn't vote Obama in because they thought he was going to turn the country around but voted him in to prove we aren't raciest and judgemental. I feel that if Obama were fully white then McCain would have won. It was all a race vote to prove something. I can prove that by saying look at the majority of the votes in the south and north. Most of the south voted McCain and most of the north voted Obama. It is still a divided country in that sense though many people want to cover it up. It was just one big race issue and I am not a raciest and I don't believe people should be judged according by skin color or religion but geeze talk about taking it to far? Vote someone in because of their race or religion, wtf? What happened to voting somebody in because you liked what they were offering and i've gotten in many debates over this when he was running and I told many people they'd regret voting him in that he'd do very little and they all laughed at me then disliked me since then because of my opinion and now half of them are complaning and I am like...I told you so. I am not saying everyone who voted for Obama did because of race but I am sure most people did. If you are going to vote someone in...don't because of race or sexism or something like that to prove. Vote somebody in because they will do a good job. One thing i've learned though is that politics are just liars. Promise things to get the vote then once they are in they do alot more damage. I would really like to see these canidates use these millions of dollars to help the American people and help our economy instead of using it for ads and pollute our earth even more. I think if somebody is going to run for office they would get a lot more votes and get noticed by using all the money to advertise to help save some people.

So now it comes to my views on him after this year...I think he is failing to do a lot of what he promised. I don't hear much about him where I live, and if he is going to sit around and do nothing the least he could do is pull a Bush move and make it look like he is doing something!! I disagree with the health care bill and feel that is just one step closer to communism. Every little thing the government does that takes away from us takes us on step closer there, most people are to blind to see it.

http://students.umf.maine.edu/lamber...isedmonkey.jpg

Aaaaaand it's gone.

It's all gone. The dignity in your account didn't do too well, it's all gone.

I should, but I think the name of the person who said orinigally is lost to antiquity. I personally don't like to talk politics and economic philosophies, it's just an observation. I said it because America is slowly turning Socialist state.

Yep.

Nothing much else needs to be said.

I would just like to point out that saying capitalism doesn't work because of what has happened here in America is just as foolish as saying Russia's collapse proves that socialism doesn't work.

I could go into more detail if you would like me to, but I'd say a system where economic collapse is inherent is pretty flawed.

And I didn't say socialism doesn't work...nor did I mention Russia at all. I mentioned communism as an example as a tried and failed form of government...but it seems to work for China pretty well albeit in a highly modified way. I think the same could go for capitalism.

Socialism works really well where I'm at which is also one of the richest countries in the world. From across the pond, the health insurance thingamabob looks like a step in the right direction. For those who can't see it's worth, the value of it will be more appearant when X amount of years have passed.

Do most people in your region have the same feelings about the healthcare reform? It would make me feel much better about it...all I hear around here is negativity. Maybe it's because I live in a highly conservative state, but it's getting tiring.

As far as Obama's other policies...the title of this thread says it all. He has only been in office for little more than ONE YEAR. I can't stand people saying, "well, it's been a year and the country isn't all fixed...he obviously failed." Right.

Is this a response to me? In Norway, we've had (near) free health care for as long as I can remember so the word reform confused me a bit. We're very happy about our health care system. Your own Michael Moore was here documenting some of how it is/works for the movie sicko, but it was left out as I guess he thought people would think it seemed too good to be true/believable. So - the bit about Norway was left out, but was included in the DVD extras. Instead of me presenting stuff about it, you can watch that clip on youtube if you'd like. ;)



Not to offend, but I think americans are a bit slow to learn from other countries' politics. Now you've taken a step in the right direction I believe, at least concerning health care. :)

^

Yes, it was to you. I was wondering what people in other countries thought about our healthcare reform. We have adopted a lot of what other countries are already doing, but if you look at the actual plan there are still a lot of flaws. That's why I was asking.

And there is no offense. I agree with you totally. I could get into a whole other discussion based on my criticism of American politics, but I would just upset people.

I was using the comment about socialism/communism to show that the comment about capitalism that you made is flawed.

You have to look at why capitalism/communism is failing/succeeding in the country of X. You can't just say "Well, communism worked here, so it is a good economic system." When you do that, you are basing your argument more off of correlation, which is weak.

Also, how is economic collapse inherent in capitalism. Please don't use correlative arguments either because in the world of formal logic they don't really mean anything.

The point of my posts is to show that the way capitalism is run right now is not working. Adding a bit of socialism is what we need. Look up the fractional reserve system and you can see in plain writing how economic collapse is inherent. Not only is it apparent in writing, but we have seen it happen time and again, almost exactly when today's statisticians and economic supervisors predict it will happen.

And in no way was I correlating anything you mentioned. Read my posts again.

The health care bill isn't going to put us anywhere near the rest of the world, it's the worst of both worlds.

You're not even responding to what he's saying.

I'm pretty sure I responded to every point he made...

Read the posts very, very carefully. He was just pointing out that saying because capitalism fails in America does not mean it is inherently flawed.

I got that...which is why I clarified by saying I meant it is flawed the way it is run in America...which is the whole point of me mentioning communism failing in Russia but working in China.

Well, you guys are like the 3rd or 4th largest exporters of oil, am I right? For a long time now too. Not that it has everything to do with it, but it certainly helps. Heh.. us folk in the U.S. aren't even in the top 10. Not to mention the bass ackward government spending we're up to our necks in... Especially with programs that have thus far only proven to expand our deficit and provide absolutely no debt benefit in this current administration, which is really the first thing that needs to be taken care of if we even want to have the ability to fund universal health care without jacking taxation up with no reciprocal benefit to the other areas of life where we must pay out the money we earn.

Anyway, just a curious question here... But how do you feel about your taxation? And do you feel it's justified by the benefits you receive? And finally, do you feel that there is any danger of [physically] able workers placing exceedingly less emphasis on having jobs when government support will virtually guarantee their stay?

Ah, I see what you were saying, you just put in a strange way.

You aren't criticizing capitalism. You are criticizing a type of bank system.

What I meant is this:

Correlation: Giving particular phenomena as the basis of your argument.
Causation: Giving reasons as the basis of your argument

You gave certain countries (phenomena) as examples of how socialism works, but what is more important is why (reasons) socialism is "working" in those countries.
If you are going to mention that it is flawed here in America, then you side with just about every person on the globe except the neocons. What is the problem, though? America is in a lot of debt, not because of capitalism, but because of useless wars and various welfare problems. The government costs a lot of money to run, and the government isn't getting it through taxation. You might say, "Well if we strayed from capitalism and taxed more, then the government would get some money back." You'd be correct, but you could also go more capitalist and say that we should slowly take away the useless parts of government and welfare programs. It isn't a problem with capitalism, here in America, because we are far from capitalism. It is mixed economy.

All I am saying is that if you are going to criticize capitalism, at least criticize capitalism for what it is, instead of just using strawmen to put forth your argument.

Yes, I'm definetly happy and I've been very much on the recieving end of government funding my whole life. Much of my free education has been government sponsored beyond the fact it's free for example by including cruises up in the arctic to the north pole ice for a value of hundreds of thousands of NOKs - a lot of money. When I was a teenager, I worked and helped run a cafè which was basically run by teenagers and young adults in a government building, the old post office in the town I'm from. We didn't pay rent for it, it was borrowed to us for free and the office of culture actually gave us money, a rough equivalent to 2000 USD one year to spend on arranging concerts. The idea from their point of view was of course to get more gigs for local bands.

Next year, I might study pedagogy for a year so I can get work as a teacher as something to fall back on if I can't get work as a biologist. The government wants more teachers, so if I pass all my exams that year, that means I'll get taxfree about 15000 USD to see me through that year. Since me and my GF are already living in student housing, rent is relatively cheap compared to living elsewhere, so that means I can get by on government funding without having to get a job .. which is basically what I'm doing now as well.

I've also recieved a lot of free health care which includes simple surgery and a number of other little things. When I was a kid, my mother got paid time off work to take care of us for example.

To americans, I bet I sound like quite the freeloader ;) The way I feel is that the taxes I'll be paying when I'm hopefully working as a biologist will give back what the government has already given me. Once I've payed back what I owe society, and that might take a while, I'll gladly pay my taxes so that my kids and other people as well can live in the kind of society I grew up in. My father who's been working most his life and has paid back many times over in taxes what the government has spent on him feels the same way.

In a functioning socialist country, the government is a benefactor. Here, it helps people get the education they want, give them free medical care under pregnancy, lots of time off to young parents to take care of kids, make sure there are activities to partake in. Basically, it nurtures the people in the society. I think in return, people want to nurture society too. People here seldom complain about the high taxes.

You'd think we got a lot of freeloaders, but the relative unemployment rate in the US is actually 3 times higher than in Norway, from a little over 3% here to just under 10% in the US this year. This is not the source for that statement, but it shows a simple map which shows unemployment in countries. We're doing rather well in comparison to a lot of countries it seems.


I think to americans, socialism and it's benefits are not really appearant. I believe most don't really know what they are. If you read my post, you might read about something which seems unfamiliar. You've never really had socialism. Your government hasn't been a benefactor who gives you a top education for free or free health care. If it was possible to make a sudden shift to socialism, that would make some people net losers because they would not have recieved much in the past and are suddenly forced to give. Years after the shift, ideally, everyone would be benefactors.

Norway is a good country for socialism because we have money, but a lot of those oil cash are actually tucked away for the rainy days when our oil is gone and we may not have other natural resources to sell. People were happy before we got this wealthy and I think it's possible for the US as well. It's just that it requires a total change in perception of what the government is and should be, something that would probably take a while.

I'm in no way trying to knock Norway, because your system seems to work really well, but there are a number of differences between the US and Norway which make me wonder how well that system would translate. The biggest one is population: the US is roughly 64 times the size of Norway. I wonder if it would even be possible to make the Norwegian model work in a country that is such a different size. Another possible issue is that the US is a far less culturally and ethnically homogenous place than Norway and as a result I feel like there's less of a sense of "we're all in this together" here than there is in Norway.

Ha.

Ha ha.

hahahahahahahahahahahaah

Definetly, I very much agree with you there. I wouldn't suggest the US does things exactly like we do and I think the cultural richness and population size are excellent examples of differences which would complicate.

I still get the impression a lot of people don't know what socialism is or how it really works - or think that it's just a fantasy. I hope my last post helps illustrate how it is possible and what some of the possible benefits are. :)

Wow. First of all, if you haven't heard much about the President around where you live, that's your own fault. So you probably shouldn't even have an opinion on him if you don't know what he's been doing. You're on the internet right now, you have the power to learn every single thing he's done since being in office, but you obviously don't care. Secondly, people voted him into office because they wanted health care reform and all of the other promises they made (I specify that because it was a huge one). Yes, there were people out there that voted him into office because of race. But I have a hard time believing that that's really the majority of America. Here's another interesting fact about politics that you haven't realized yet: The north/south thing? The south always tends to vote for the Republican candidate more often because the South has always been more conservative and the north has always been more liberal. That's the way it is in the U.S. Feel free to go to the link below if you'd like to see how when Bush was first elected into office Gore won the entire Northeast, and Bush took most of the South:

2000 election results

Lastly, you say politicians are all liars and don't do what they promise. If you actually bothered to pay any attention to politics, you'd realize that whether you share similar political views or not, Obama's doing a damn good job of working his ass off to do everything he promised. I have tons of respect for the man for that, that's something you rarely ever see in a politician.

You know, I've noticed people on this site love to use the term strawmen. I'm not sure you really know its proper use. If you use a little intuitive logic, you will see my posts are pretty sound.

Again...I will stress this one more time...I am specifically talking about capitalism in AMERICA. I know capitalism is run differently in other countries, just like other forms of government are run in various ways all over the world. The other countries I mentioned I used strictly to show that, given the proper circumstances, a form of government CAN or CAN NOT work.

Now...the specific example I gave was mentioning the banking system. Sure, the banking system is not capitalism, but here in America, the banking system is pretty integral part of capitalism. The way we spend our money, earn money, and gain a foothold in the country based on capitalism is directly related to the way the bank is run. With the fractional reserve system combined with the free market, it is a recipe for disaster. Now, if you don't know how the fractional reserve system works I will be happy to explain it to you.

If you can point out the strawman in this argument, by all means do it.

Slowley but surely, rich or poor, unless your are important your freedom is going to sink. The idea of reform is to lump us and ration to us all together... I buying a space shuttle.