Astronomer

^ Kids can't achieve debating skills and deductive reasoning without proficient literacy, higher order thinking skills, a sound knowledge of the world, and so many other critical skills that they don't have when they start school. I really don't think debating and deductive reasoning are the most important skills to teach students... I think they are skills that come after they have succeeded in other learning areas.

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boo boo

Yeah, but those are things public schools are expected to teach anyway, not saying they actually do it, or do it very well.

But yeah, I'm not saying it's easy as adding new stuff to the classroom, the whole system needs a complete makeover.

Public school pretty much failed me, I was said to be a decent student but my behavior was an issue and I couldn't deal with the aspects of bullying. That was the primary reason I was enrolled in homeschooling.

I've learned more things from experience, debating with people about various issues and just plain reading a book every now and then than I ever did from public school. That's not an endorsement of this unschooling thing, I'm just saying there were better alternatives to public school for me personally.

I'm not terribly supportive of private schools or of parents homeschooling their kids, if anything we need more private tutors with a solid academic background who can communicate to the kids personally, honestly and directly.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

Astronomer

They do 'teach' it, but you're right, whether the students learn it effectively is another matter.

It really worries me when people say the public schooling system failed them. I hope in my career none of my students feel the same, though I guess some of them probably will. I think teachers need to identify 'at risk' students before it comes to the point where they have been failed, and address the student's needs to assure they stay engaged in the school community. If I had a student who have problems with behaviour, like you mentioned, I probably would have racked my brains to figure out why the student was behaving that way - behaviour is a message. Then altered my teaching methods to accommodate or change this behaviour if need be. Bullying also makes me really anxious. Students don't learn when they are depressed or unhappy. I think as a teacher creating a supportive learning environment where the children feel safe and able to freely express themselves and experiment with knowledge is another concept that supports effective learning.

I have so many ideas about how the education system should change and when I finally graduate from my 4 year degree in October I have so much information and knowledge and ambitions to bring to my career but I guess the fact of the matter is that most schools these days, even in the public sector, operate like businesses with little of the individual students in mind. And those who think they know all about education and decide how the education system is going to operate have no experience in teaching or in students whatsoever.

Depressing. Why did I choose this profession again?

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VEGANGELICA

I agree with you, Lateralus, that your final sentence should be the main goal...creating a supportive learning environment where kids feel safe.

The public school my child attends fails at this in some ways: the teacher sometimes shouts and speaks in a way that humiliates children, and has them miss recess, heads down on the table, if they forget something (like to bring homework in). The teacher uses candy as a prize (groan).

However, the teachers all do try to prevent bullying and try to cater classwork to kids' different skill levels within the same class. Kids who are below or above grade level in their skills get "flagged" to receive special attention, so that they don't fall too far behind or get too bored. Students with behavioral problems have a special "tutor" with whom the kids spend time. These kids are removed from class for a half hour for this special class.

The main behavioral problem that teachers face with some kids is that the kids refuse to do what you ask. This is when the teachers try a variety of incentives and disinsentives, with varying degrees of success. Telling a kid, "You're not a mouse, you're a human child..now ACT like one" isn't very helpful. Giving the child a special checklist on which she keeps track of her successes (such as being helpful and following instructions during 15-minute segments of the day) to allow her to earn some privilege (computer time) seems to work better.

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boo boo

At one point when I was in the 1st and 2nd grade, my teachers got me enrolled in special ed classes in between my normal classes.

In other words, when the other kids were out and about doing music class or gym or recess, I was in a class full of special needs kids having little golden books read to me.

Did this help me in anyway? F*ck no, it was just the school board's way of telling me I'm a f*cking retard and they didn't want to have to deal with me.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

Astronomer

I agree with boobs in this regard, isolating kids who may need special attention and giving them 'special' activities and a 'special' teacher just separates them from 'normality' and shoots their confidence down. They need to be integrated and included in the classroom as a whole - given the same learning opportunities as everybody else.

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boo boo

Yeah. I don't mean to mock special needs kids with the retard comment, in general those were the only kids who were nice to me.

But yeah, it's terrible that the school board pigionholes kids with a diverse range of problems and needs into one little category. A kid with attention and social behavior problems shouldn't be treated like he's functionally retarded. That only fuels the social alienation.

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lucifer_sam

I'm sure it sucks for those kids but the goal of special education isn't to segregate schools into "normal" and "not normal," it's to give those kids an extra hand so they don't fail all their classes. I'm aware that there's plenty of kids that simply have learning disabilities, do you find it justifiable that many of them won't graduate because of their disabilities when they're otherwise completely functional?

I was actually on the other side of the fence, in an accelerated learning program for the majority of my primary and secondary schooling (once we started taking AP and college classes it became somewhat unnecessary). Shortly after I graduated, the school district completely removed that system (in compliance with NCLB), forcing the more intelligent students to assume the same mediocre role as everybody else. What kind of message do you think this sends to children?

I think you're probably right about this, but aside from personal tutors, what other options does a school district have?

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first.am

bubu

The inherent problem obviously starts at how well they perform at their school tasks.

The biggest trouble of today's education system is that they give the same thing to everybody; no 2 people are evenly matched in all areas, that's the beauty of being human, so why in the hell does everybody have to learn so much stupid bull**** that few people really care about?

This happens because the education system is supposed to make you behave in a certain way, and any child that sees through the superficial purpose rejects school in his own way, so they become kids with "special needs".

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Acoustic Guitar

Paco De Lucia

Astronomer

I'm not saying that children need to be all lumped into the same category, but I'm also not saying that they should be segregated. I've worked with a lot of children with developmental delays, mostly autism, and when placed in a special needs setting they don't do nearly as well as when they are integrated into the classroom. Yes, it benefits them to have an integration aide, but not all day every day and not in a way that separates them from the rest of the class. At the moment I have a class with 2 ASD kids and 2 kids with other social disorders. They do not have aides or special programs, and the lessons that I and my mentor teacher plan incorporate them into the classroom and allow them to perform to their best ability. The fact that they get to do the same work as everybody else makes them feel included and confident.

Classroom teachers should be able to plan lessons that cater for different developmental stages. Assistance for those children who need it and more challenging work for those who are 'accelerated.'

What kind of message do you think it sends children to be separated in different groups according to ability? That's not what it's like in the 'real world,' if we're arguing that the primary goal of education is to prepare children for life...

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