Miracles!!

mr dave · 05-11-2010, 05:41 PM

sorry for your loss R-T, at least you've got a positive perspective on the matter. my grandmother has been in her 'final' hospital stay since Easter (stroke), we were all hoping for a quick and painless passing, 6 weeks later she's still cognitive but not any closer to being medically stable.

right-track · 05-11-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr dave

sorry for your loss R-T, at least you've got a positive perspective on the matter. my grandmother has been in her 'final' hospital stay since Easter (stroke), we were all hoping for a quick and painless passing, 6 weeks later she's still cognitive but not any closer to being medically stable.

Sorry to hear that Dave.
I'm not sure where you're from...are you aware of the Liverpool Care Plan?

VEGANGELICA · 05-11-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AwwSugar

Of course, I have hope for miracles sometimes.
But this is too much.

I'll keep my eyes on this "starving yogi" story to learn if/when his claims are debunked. Or proven! Perhaps there are "breatherators" who gain sustenance from the very air!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I think this is one sneaky yogi indeed. Maybe he carries bottled water somewhere in his body?

I can think of only one orifice big enough, and carrying a water bottle there wouldn't be too comfortable...but better than drinking your own urine!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I believe in miracles
Since you came along
You sexy thing

You were singing that song to Freebase, weren't you, Janszoon! I couldn't help but notice that his post came right before your post!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungalow

i believe in miracles, but probably because i define them differently from you. for example, the spontaneous appearance of life on earth is "miraculous" even though it can be explained naturally. i don't think the fact that something can be explained scientifically precludes it from being miraculous.

events that defy natural law i would characterize as supernatural.

So, bungalow, to make sure I understand, you define a "miracle" as some event that follows natural law but has a very low probability of occurring. Meanwhile, it sounds like what you think of as supernatural would be what I define as a "miracle."

How unlikely would you feel some natural occurrence has to be for it to be a miracle? Wouldn't such a probability cutoff be very arbitrary? If I flip a coin a trillion times and get only 1 head, would that be a miracle? And if it *were* a miracle, what about if I did it again and get 2 heads? Or 10? How would you decide when some event is no longer considered "miraculous?"

VEGANGELICA · 05-11-2010, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by right-track

As my dad deteriorated, miraculously, my sister began to respond to the intensive care treatment.
The day my sister came off the ventilator was the day that my fathers breathing became shallow.
The day my sister was taken out of her induced coma was the day my father slipped into one.
It was as if Dad was slowly swapping places with my sister!

Sadly, my father died on St. George's day. Believe me, it was a blessing considering the quality of life he had over the previous 18 months.
My sister attended the funeral.

I'm very sorry, right-track, about your dad's low quality of life in the year and a half before he died. I'm glad your sister survived!

A high school classmate died on his second day of Junior Year due to aspirating and asphyxiating on vomit while wrestling with his little brother. One day he was there...the next...gone.

I think one reason the idea of "miracles" is so hard for me to imagine is that their application would be so arbitrary, assuming there were miracles and some supernatural being were behind them. I hear survivors of great traumatic events say their survival was a "miracle" but I can't forget all those who weren't saved.

If there were a supernatural power behind rare natural events that people perceive as miracles, why wouldn't such a supernatural power dispense miracles right and left? If I could work miracles to save people, I'd be doing that all the time!

**Janszoon** · 05-11-2010, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

You were singing that song to Freebase, weren't you, Janszoon! I couldn't help but notice that his post came right before your post!

Maybe I was!

FETCHER. · 05-11-2010, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

A high school classmate died on his second day of Junior Year due to aspirating and asphyxiating on vomit while wrestling with his little brother. One day he was there...the next...gone.

There was a group of about 5 of us who were really close throughout primary. We were only 11/12, Me and 4 boys. One day I was grounded so couldn't go out with them... we used to go down to the river and play on the rope swing thingy, and my mate fell off the rope and into the raging river below. As you said, one day he was there, the next he was gone.

~~bungalow~~ · 05-11-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

I'll keep my eyes on this "starving yogi" story to learn if/when his claims are debunked. Or proven! Perhaps there are "breatherators" who gain sustenance from the very air!

I can think of only one orifice big enough, and carrying a water bottle there wouldn't be too comfortable...but better than drinking your own urine!

You were singing that song to Freebase, weren't you, Janszoon! I couldn't help but notice that his post came right before your post!

So, bungalow, to make sure I understand, you define a "miracle" as some event that follows natural law but has a very low probability of occurring. Meanwhile, it sounds like what you think of as supernatural would be what I define as a "miracle."

How unlikely would you feel some natural occurrence has to be for it to be a miracle? Wouldn't such a probability cutoff be very arbitrary? If I flip a coin a trillion times and get only 1 head, would that be a miracle? And if it *were* a miracle, what about if I did it again and get 2 heads? Or 10? How would you decide when some event is no longer considered "miraculous?"

i wouldn't seriously ascribe the word "miracle" to anything concerning coin flipping. so i assume i am free to ignore your what-if scenario. i am not out to quantitatively define "miracles"--my point is simply that things occur which could be considered miraculous (mr. dave gave a fantastic example--people surviving 13 days beneath earthquake rubble, as recently observed in haiti), and because i do not believe in a benevolent intelligence that actively interferes with human affairs these occurrences must have natural explanations...but that does not make them any less miraculous. you can explain how these events happened scientifically, but that they happened is miraculous.

mr dave · 05-11-2010, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by right-track

Sorry to hear that Dave.
I'm not sure where you're from...are you aware of the Liverpool Care Plan?

i'm in Canada, hadn't heard of the LCP but it sounds similar to the setup available here. my maternal family all lives within about a half hour drive from each other aside from myself and like 3 other cousins so they're just as involved with her care as the professionals. it's like my mom tells me, even though the family has known it was coming for years you're never really ready when it finally happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

I hear survivors of great traumatic events say their survival was a "miracle" but I can't forget all those who weren't saved.

If there were a supernatural power behind rare natural events that people perceive as miracles, why wouldn't such a supernatural power dispense miracles right and left? If I could work miracles to save people, I'd be doing that all the time!

i obviously disagree since this was my earlier example, but... i don't buy the idea that it's an external supernatural power. to me it's a cop out, a denial of the power of the human spirit. then again i refuse to believe that my life and existence is limited to the physical body i inhabit. the miracle in my eyes is that the individual is able to disconnect and reattach themselves to their physical bodies once the trauma has passed.

or maybe i'm reading too much into the similarities between the words miracle and mirage.

~~Odyshape~~ · 05-11-2010, 10:38 PM

If a "miracle" were to ever happen all that would mean to me is that we are behind in our scientific discoveries.

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 05-12-2010, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by right-track

The closest thing I've seen to a miracle happened only last month.
My elder sister had severe stomach pains causing her to vomit and go into a seizure.
While she was in that state, she inhaled vomit onto her lungs.
At the hospital she went into cardiac arrest and stopped breathing.
They resuscitated her, but she remained unconscious and was unable to breath unaided.
The doctors were about to put her on life support when she regained consciousness, but her condition was life threatening so they put her into an induced coma.
We were told that due to inhaling vomit onto the lungs the bacteria would cause an instant infection and along with the acid from her vomit she had suffered burns to the lungs.
We were then told that her chances of survival were none unless they operated to find the root cause. Namely, the pain which caused the vomiting and the subsequent seizure.
If there was a blockage, or a burst ulcer, finding the problem was vital to her already slim chances of survival. They gave her a 20% chance. Odds of 5 to 1 against.
They warned us however, that if the operation (which involved opening her up and physically checking her bowels) found nothing, then the added insult would probably give her less chance of surviving than the one she had if nothing was done.
Which as I've already pointed out earlier, were pretty much none to begin with.

After a quick family discussion we gave authorisation for the operation...they found nothing.

But, when they opened her up and removed her bowels for inspection they realised they were distended from the oxygen pumped into her by the paramedics.
The oxygen had to go somewhere because her lungs weren't responding at the time.
Removal of the bowels freed up space in the diaphragm and eased her breathing somewhat.
Consequently they made the decision not to close her back up, but to leave the incision open, covered with a plastic sheet, until they returned to normal.
The next 48 hours were crucial!
Things can't get any worse, right?

Wrong!

3 days later my father was admitted to the same hospital with breathing problems.
Now, my father had been ill for a long time. Some members here will know that he suffered from dementia, along with several other illnesses.
Dad had developed pneumonia and it wasn't looking good.

As my dad deteriorated, miraculously, my sister began to respond to the intensive care treatment.
The day my sister came off the ventilator was the day that my fathers breathing became shallow.
The day my sister was taken out of her induced coma was the day my father slipped into one.
It was as if Dad was slowly swapping places with my sister!

Sadly, my father died on St. George's day. Believe me, it was a blessing considering the quality of life he had over the previous 18 months.

My sister attended the funeral.

Sorry to hear hun

05-11-2010, 10:38 PM	#19 (permalink)
~~Odyshape~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 526	If a "miracle" were to ever happen all that would mean to me is that we are behind in our scientific discoveries.