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View Poll Results: Your level of observance?
Non-practicing/secular form of religion 19 44.19%
A little observant 3 6.98%
Middle-of-the-road observance 10 23.26%
Strict adherence to religious rules 4 9.30%
Don't know 7 16.28%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-27-2011, 02:44 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Schranz bass View Post
So, am I to understand from this that you don't have your own ideology? or morals? or purpose? and that Judaism provides the nonsensical, reward-punishment way of life for you to follow so that you can think less?

I don't see how following ANY religion, whether it be Judaism, Islam, Christianity or any other religion for that matter equates to 'thinking less'. Indeed, there ARE people who choose to treat their religion as a get-out-of-thinking clause, but there are also people within different religion who are highly intelligent and who do think for themselves. Even the likes of Richard Dawkins will admit that there exists a highly-complex, highly nuanced and intelligent religious group who don't settle for easy answers.

Also, study is a major part of the Jewish culture. Even from the earliest times, Jewish people would study in the yeshivot (kinda like a Sunday school for younger Jews) and the beit midrash (a Torah college of sorts for adult scholars and sometimes teenagers), and see the study of Torah (and more recently, of science) as a duty of being Jewish. There's no such thing as an easy answer in Judaism and anyone who thinks that Judaism provides some easy cut-and-paste answers to all life's problems is wrong.

Also, I wasn't born Jewish, and indeed until I went to uni some 4 years ago I'd never read a siddur, been to a synagogue or even heard of Seder. It's not like I was born into this system and had some system of thought imposed upon me from day 1. I was brought up in a vaguely Christian home, and attended church schools. I wasn't forced to attend any church services or to believe in anything, and so it happens that I formed my own ideas about morality under my own steam, and my own ideology about the world and about any god that might exist. It just so happens that my ideas about these things match to what is taught in Judaism.

Also, it's not like there's no room for personal freedom in a religion. I can still have my own ideas, my own dreams, my own ideas on what my purpose is, but within the framework of Judaism, which I believe will help, not hinder, me in achieving those things. OK, I've had to change things, such as what I wear and eat, but otherwise I'm still very much the person I was before. Hell, I'm probably a BETTER and happier person than before, because I believe that the Jewish systems of kashrut, tnizut and halakha are the right things to do.

I cannot understand why you seem so hostile.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:50 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GeddyBass2112 View Post
I cannot understand why you seem so hostile.


And I cannot understand how you think I seem hostile.

I asked a question.

It seems to me that you evaluate yourself according to the doctrines of Judaism, and whatever esle; that doesn't leave much room for counterfactual thought or humanism.

Last edited by Schranz bass; 03-27-2011 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:52 PM   #103 (permalink)
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That's because I am not hostile.

You're the one calling my religious beliefs 'nonsensical' and seem to think that anyone who is religious is also stupid.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:59 PM   #104 (permalink)
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So?
That is not hostile.
And I didn't say '...that anyone who is religious is also stupid,' I said religious dogmatism is stupid
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:01 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Schranz bass View Post
And I cannot understand how you think I seem hostile.

I asked a question.

It seems to me that you evaluate yourself according to the doctrines of Judaism, and whatever esle; that doesn't leave much room for counterfactual thought or humanism.
You really don't understand how you seem hostile in this thread? In the last 3 pages or so you've insulted nearly every one's religious choice for absolutely no reason, giving completely ridiculous reasons for doing so and dodging serious questions. What do you base anything that you think on? Past experiences? Yep. Where did you learn those morals? School and family. You might not want to accept it, but your morals came from somewhere too. There is no reason to insult people who choose to live by a code because it's what they believe.

Also, you said that Geddy can't think for himself and implied that the entire Turkish race is stupid. Just sayin.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:05 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Schranz bass View Post
And I cannot understand how you think I seem hostile.

I asked a question.

It seems to me that you evaluate yourself according to the doctrines of Judaism, and whatever esle; that doesn't leave much room for counterfactual thought or humanism.

I evaluated Judaism according to what I believe, not the other way round. The fundamentals of what I believe were in place LONG before I discovered Judaism or indeed religion full-stop.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:10 PM   #107 (permalink)
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So?
That is not hostile.
And I didn't say '...that anyone who is religious is also stupid,' I said religious dogmatism is stupid
No, you said this:

''So, am I to understand from this that you don't have your own ideology? or morals? or purpose? and that Judaism provides the nonsensical, reward-punishment way of life for you to follow so that you can think less?''

You directly say that following Judaism is about 'thinking less', and that it's 'nonsensical'.

Come on, I'm not trying to be some evangelical nutcase here. I'm merely stating my case as I see it. No-one is forcing you to believe in anything and I'm being respectful of YOUR beliefs.

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Originally Posted by music_phantom13 View Post
You really don't understand how you seem hostile in this thread? In the last 3 pages or so you've insulted nearly every one's religious choice for absolutely no reason, giving completely ridiculous reasons for doing so and dodging serious questions. What do you base anything that you think on? Past experiences? Yep. Where did you learn those morals? School and family. You might not want to accept it, but your morals came from somewhere too. There is no reason to insult people who choose to live by a code because it's what they believe.

Also, you said that Geddy can't think for himself and implied that the entire Turkish race is stupid. Just sayin.
Seems to me that Schranz Bass is either a) trolling us all or b) is simply question dodging to avoid answering difficult questions.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:11 PM   #108 (permalink)
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I grew up as a Protestant Christian, but I always had doubts for as long as I can remember. My mom and grandma (who has lived with us since I was about 5) are pretty lax in practice in an already moderate religion, which means they go to church once a year. My dad, brother and I tag along because it means alot to my mom and grandma, and basically it's just a family outing (we go every Christmas Eve).

As for beliefs, I don't know. I'm open to anything. I know that I will never know anything about a "higher power" so I don't waste my time speculating about it. I guess you can consider me an agnostic.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:13 PM   #109 (permalink)
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^sounds like most of Britain's Christians TBH.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:16 PM   #110 (permalink)
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As for beliefs, I don't know. I'm open to anything. I know that I will never know anything about a "higher power" so I don't waste my time speculating about it. I guess you can consider me an agnostic.
I think this is the best way of going about things. Some people get too absorbed in either proving or disproving the existence of some sort of god (I'll admit that I've been guilty of this) instead of just leading a happy life.
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