Howard the Duck

I think you're more concerned about people than God. There's more to Christianity than just the traditional right-wing dogmatism in the mainstream churches. Those are just issues made by people who think they have God in them but they don't.

I see a lot of my fellow Christians being just mindless automatons, reading mindless self-perpetuating books concerning right-wing views.

Take it from me - Chrisitianity is a lot deeper that what strawman would like to have us believe, and in a way, they themselves perpetuate the Marxian quote "religion is the opiate of the people".

I suggest you read something like "The Transmigration of Timothy Archer" to get a better idea of Christianity, especially Gnostic Christianity before so easily dismissing Jesus.

GeddyBass2112

For me the issue stems not just from just any one set of churches or people but the entirety of the bassis of the Christian church. The Arian heresy, the countless early Christian sects with their wildly differing views on Scripture, the Council of Nicea deciding what was the 'official' doctrine of the early Church, then the copious ommissions of supposedly pseudoepigraphical texts from the official canon of Bible books (including the Gospels of Thomas, Nicodemus and Judas, although I'm assuming that last one to actually be authentic)- the whole thing seems to me like a complete and utter mess. To my mind, any religion rooted in such a system seems to be of dubious veracity.

Not trying to insult your own or indeed anyone else's beliefs, and apologize if this post sounds harsh or rude but to me this is the biggest roadlblocks to me (re)accepting Christian doctrine for myself.

I also apologize in advance if my language seems odd. English isn't my first language and I struggle sometimes to say what I'm trying to say.

I will however do some reading as you suggest.

Janszoon

Really? I would never have guessed that at all, you write like a native speaker.

What is your first language?

__________________
A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

crukster

IKR man she types it really well.

cardboard adolescent

I've personally found that by living with more awareness and sensitivity most activities that religions would deem "immoral" simply become unappealing. As long as there's this struggle of repression/indulgence it's hard to find inner peace. Being totally aware of your thoughts and feelings in an honest and transparent way is much more important, in my opinion, than trying to force yourself into a code of conduct which you constantly struggle with.

Neapolitan

But the result might be well worth the struggle. To quote Aristotle "I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is the victory over self."

__________________

Howard the Duck

it's still what men did, not the idea of Christ or God

I'm more in line with the original Christian cult - the Gnossis, before there was an "authorised" Bible, before there were churches - they were more into the pursuit of knowlege - yes I believe in the Gnostic Gospels as well, those omitted by the Nicean Creed

cardboard adolescent

The problem is that it's very difficult to overcome desires by struggling against them. Struggling against your desires just ends up giving them fuel and fire. When we're really aware of the desire, really aware of the sensation that we're so attached to, really aware of the consequences of giving in, the undesirable desire fades away by itself. The key is to recognize that what we believe is a great pleasure is actually causing us to suffer, because it's making us agitated or because it has negative consequences.

The hardest victory is the victory over self, but it's the self that desires to struggle and fight. The hardest victory is giving in to peace, and peace is the simplest path

GeddyBass2112

I spoke French until I was 5 and went to school. Don't speak it as much as I'd like, so I'm rusty.

Sometimes it's not about completely denying yourself something but channeling it into something more positive and useful. There's a thing called 'jíhad' in Islam which means 'struggle' or 'striving' and which basically means undertaking those things you find difficult and seeking God in those things to help you. This is the REAL meaning of jihad.

For example, lust is seen as a bad thing in most religions, but channeling that feeling towards that person into a meaningful relationship is not. Same with things like gluttony: overeating and greed are seen as bad things, as well as eating 'bad' foods, whilst following a strict diet (whether it be the prescribed kosher/halal diets, or simply the more simple religious edict to not be greedy and look after the body) can have a reward, both mentally and physically, spiritually and emotionally.

I LOVE Aristotle! I'm sigging this when I can...

VEGANGELICA

Geddy, I like this thoughtful point you make about how struggling to do those things we find difficult but important can be very uplifting.

Some of the actions I've taken in my life that were most meaningful to me (such as deciding to become vegetarian and then vegan out of concern for other animals) were ones that required me to break out of my habits and old way of thinking as I worked toward a goal that felt more in keeping with who I was or wanted to be.

I've never thought of myself as observing any kind of religious belief in becoming vegetarian and then vegan...it was more observing my *own* feelings...yet I do remember when I learned about Buddhism and Hinduism that I felt comforted to know that what I felt had been given a name (ahimsa) because so many other people felt the same way as I:

I think it is interesting how I ended up deciding to be vegetarian when I was an isolated child in a meat-eating family and community...while halfway around the world there were huge numbers of people who had taken this same path as part of major spiritual religious philosophies. I would have liked to have known that at the time.

I see how spiritual organizations, whether secular or religious, can help encourage people to achieve their personal goals, which may actually be the goal of thinking more about others. Then observing the organizations' ideals for behavior is a way to practice using your will to obtain your own goals, such as the goal of living a healthier, kinder life.

I'm never sure to what degree my Unitarian Universalist background as a little child influenced my future choice to become vegetarian for the first time in elementary school, and later vegan as an adult. I imagine that thinking about the UU concepts helped set the stage for me to think about other sentient beings besides humans, since Unitarian Univeralist principles (themselves derived from a variety of religions including Buddhism and Hinduism) include...

* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

As a child learning about these concepts, I felt that justice for "all" should include my animal kin, and I would best respect them by not eating them, just as I would not want to be eaten.

Ideally, I feel that observing a spiritual concept about a way to behave shouldn't be about observing a rule that is external to yourself, but instead should revolve around observing how the concept resonates with what is already inside you. I can see how having a spiritual organization of people who uphold a value that resonates with what you feel is very core to who you are would enable you to better observe what is in your own self, and follow your conscience rather than just move rather thoughtlessly through life, copying what others do and not listening to your own inner voice.

__________________