Yes. And that's why they fight us.

It may be why they fight us, but it's definitely not why we fight them.

If you're referring to me, you need to go read my posts again.

I said I understand it, I didn't say I condone it. There is a big big difference between understanding something and condoning it.

I actually said 3 times clearly I don't condone it, it's funny you go and use the same word again derp

Are we the good guys?

Whether or not we're the "good guys" is irrelevant. All I'm saying is that Christianity and violence for the sake of violence do not go hand in hand, and your military argument is pretty baseless.

I don't even know where to begin with this. First off, we weren't just talking about religion we were talking about atheism as well. Secondly, why are you jumping to quantum mechanics? I'm not talking about scientific theories, I'm talking about ethical belief systems such as humanism. And lastly, how is it even remotely logical to think that just because someone isn't religious that they couldn't be offended by religious talk? You do understand that religion doesn't exist in a vacuum, right? It affects everyone, even the people who aren't believers.

Dude, who are are you even debating with here? I'm not in favor of book burning and I already said I think the guy's an ass for doing what he did. He still has a right do it though in a society that values free speech, just as you have right to do something equally obnoxious.

With statements you made like this:
It's understandable that I'd be confused about your position on it, because in that statement you certainly didn't seem to have a problem with what the Afghans did.

I didn't read your entire argument with Janszoon, so if you clarified then good for you. I said "people" anyways, not crukster.

And who says derp anyways? South Park is funny, you're not.

1. Atheism is not a thing. Atheism is an unthing.

We were debating the thing vs the unthing, I didn't make any sort of argument against Humanism. That's crazy.

I was saying atheism is irrelevant in the end. Either there's a God or there isn't, if there isn't how can you be "a-" to it?

If you say theism and being theist refers to more than just God, and refers to ideas and structures of Humanic morals and goals et.

Then wtf does that have to do with being atheist?

Atheist means "I'm not a theist"

Doesn't mean anything else beyond that. Ergo, if you define yourself purely and utterly as atheist, then you live your whole life saying

"im not a theist im not a theist im not a theist"

Well I'm not a ****ing turtle, I don't live my whole life saying "I'm not a turtle" sheesh

You accused me of condoning the murders. You said when I come in here saying they have a right to defend, that that sounds like I'm saying they have a right to kill.

I didn't say they have a right to kill, that whole paragraph there is why they want to kill. I'm saying there are more productive ways of showing the flaws in the book burning.

They didn't need to kill anyone. There are situations where you do. Namely, when it's your kids they decide to burn. But in this situation it was not neccessary, because the Qu'ran is only a physical copy of the words; they could burn every copy, are they gonna burn the brains of people who memorise it as well?

By burning the books, that's essentially what they're showing they want in the long run, imo. WHEN they do that, I condone the killing, hell if someone wanted to brain wash me, and used force, then I would kill them.

But as it is, every Muslim holds a copy of the Qu'ran that can't be burnt. They should take it down to where it's being burnt. Stand around. And recite.

That is freedom of speech. The day that happens is the day this is no longer an issue.


Well you're an idiot then. That doesn't say kill that says defend it.

When they pick up a sword and swing it in your face, then you have a right to kill. But not as the instigator/aggressor. There weren't any swords being swung physically. The swords were words and actions, they should have answered them in turn.


You know what though man. If I saw someone burning Qu'rans, I would be angry. I would put out the fire, I would hurt anyone who tried to stop me. I would be ****in angry.

The best thing, the ideal model thing to do in the long run, like I said, is recite it in front of them.

But I ain't a ****ing model Human Being. I'm not patient enough to do that, how could I sit there and let it burn? I would be violent. But only towards anyone who tried to stop me stopping them. In the long run I'm not a scholar, i can't sit and watch,.

That's like saying vegetarianism is an unthing :).
I don't think I agree. I think you confuse atheists with people who 'don't care about religion'. Someone who is not religious at all is not an atheist.

Not really, vegetarian -ism is the advocation of a vegetarian lifestyle above all others.

atheism is the advocation of a lack of theological thinking above all others.

How can I offend you, theologically, then? I don't get it.

We're talking about how they actually defended it, i.e.: killing people. You responded to that incident with the quote I previously posted it, so of course it sounds like your talking about them defending it by killing people.. I appreciate the "idiot" remark by the way, very mature.

I don't think he makes sense to anyone but himself.

With the quote you're referring to, I was actually responding to a quote from the virgin where he was saying "it's just a book"

When I'm saying they have a right to defend, I am saying that if you burn someone's holy book, you can't expect them to not do anything about it and sit back and accept it.

They have a right to defend, they have a right to do something. Killing is unneccessary in this situation though, so no I don't condone it.

Rule of defense, it's in the Qu'ran even. You have a right to defend any attacking force to the death. The minute you become the attacking force, though, is the minute you forfeit your Rights.

This was an intellectual attack through the symbolism of the idea of Islam, it called for an intellectual defense.

this. So much this.

Alright, I'm clear on what you're saying now and I agree. I was confused at first because your point hadn't been clarified.

This isn't about religion.

This is about a county that has had the shit blown out of it for going on 200 years all due to outside interferences and countries using it for their own gains and leaving the people there to rot.

That's where the Islamic fundamentalist get their recruitment from. Desperate people with no hope angry about their situation. I imagine if you lived in Afghanistan you'd be pretty mad too and want to strike back. That's why people want to do things like this, they've had so many things taken away from them religion is probably the only thing they have left and the fundamentalists exploit that and use it for their own gains.

So that's a thing then?
I mean, I think I'm not an atheist. I just don't see the benefits of religion.
As far as I know a real atheist pleads against religion. Which is sort of a religion in itself, but that doesnt matter.

What is it with you and this particular strawman? Atheists don't define themselves purely and utterly as atheists. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this notion that they do, but as I've said previously, you really need to do some more reading on this topic because you clearly have very weak grasp on it.

With regards to Humanism, this is is the part of the conversation I was referring to:

You said…
(^Implying, it would seem, that non-religious people don't have belief systems.)

And I responded…
(^Referring to non-religious belief systems, such as humanism.)

That is why I mentioned humanism.

Ummm no, it's not. I'm not advocating ****, I just don't want to eat animal flesh. Am I gonna kill someone if they burn my Veganomicon? No, probably not. I'd be really annoyed, but I'm not going to suicide bomb over it or something.

Exactly! Just what I was thinking.

I love how America tries to act all innocent in this situation.

Has anyone here actually read the Quran? Because I'm sensing some serious ignorance.

For example

"Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you" verses (2:194)

verses (60:8-9)
God only forbids you respecting and loving those who made war upon you on account of your religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up others in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust." The Quran does not present Islam as a religion of unquestionable pacifism or relentless aggression. Those who do not transgress should be treated humanely and benevolently with complete respect. Those who transgress should be fought, "And fight in the cause of God those who fight against you, and do not commit aggression.

From the woman herself:

Catherine Heseltine, chief executive officer of the Muslim public affairs committee, said burning the Qur'an was one of the most offensive acts to Muslims she could imagine.

"The Qur'an is the most sacred thing to over a billion Muslims worldwide. You can see that in the way Muslims treat the Qur'an, washing before touching it, and in many Muslim homes you will find it on the top shelf above all other books, and we will never destroy the Qur'anic texts."

This, is why people there have reacted the way they did. You might as well have spit on their face.

You do understand that "America" didn't burn the Koran, right? You do understand it was one extremist wacko who has been denounced by everyone from the President to the Generals in Afghanistan?

So, if someone spits in your face it's okay to kill them? That doesn't strike you as a bit over the top? Actually a better comparison would be you spit in my face so I go kill some Nepalese guy down the street because he's not from here so he obviously supports the actions of every single other person who's not from here. A bit insane, no?

Absolutely not. I am in no way personally condoning the killings or behaviour as they do not represent my beliefs. I am merely pointing out why they have reacted so. I should have made that more clear.

I do realise America didn't burn the Koran. But in regards to past racial conflict they don't do themselves any favour. :)

But it sounds like you're making excuses for their behavior. I don't care if someone hurt their feelings by burning their holy book, they are absolutely unjustified in murdering innocent people and they should be, at the very least, jailed for it. They deserve no sympathy.

Phew. :)

Well like I said, the guy in question has been renounced at the highest levels of government and by a huge percentage of the populace. I'm not sure what else could be done beyond that.

It's not an excuse, it's their way of thinking. Which is very different from the Western worlds. You can't argue with their side of things, just disagree with it.

And to think... people warned him not to do it and predicted something similar to this might happen. Does this justify killing seven people over a silly book? Of course not, but he knew what he was getting into.

He was warned not just by Americans but by the Muslims themselves, that actions would be taken if he was to follow through. So he was very sure of what he was doing. I just can't believe how unnecessary this has all been. He is everything a Christian shouldn't be. He's not loving, forgiving or accepting of others. He persecutes others for having another faith than Christianity and in the modern world that is incredibly wrong.

I would never associate myself with people like him.

I don't believe that the murderers in this situation are representative of Muslims as a whole or of Afghans as a whole.

Oh no not at all. They are not all extremists. But it doesn't mean a lot of Muslims aren't angry right now without acting out in that manner.

one thing i really like about the Quran is one of the lines that goes something like "if your ho gets out of line, exercise your pimp hand"

i love reading the arguments. very intellectual.

What a bunch of idiots. A guy burns a book, and they hold violent protests and kill people that had nothing to do with it whatsoever. Just complete idiots, and I am glad a few of them elected to commit suicide, but it's unfortunate others were injured in the process. I don't care how holy a book is to anyone, it's absurd and just completely idiotic to kill innocent people. It makes zero sense at all. Certain muslims giving the Muslim religion a bad name again, way to go.

Of course it's all about a book.

The fact that these people lived in the most war torn country on earth & not some rich leafy American suburb is just a coincidence. right?

You said it, not me. It probably isn't. I don't imagine the reaction would have been the same in the US if something similar happened here. I'm not sure what could be so similiar because I don't think most Americans take the Bible seriously enough to suicide bomb people in response to a Bible burning. The people over there are more used to violence and don't live by the same standards Americans do. A book was burned. The response of some was to kill others who had nothing to do with burning the book. Those people are complete idiots. Their environment undoubtedly plays a part in their choices, as it does for everyone. Doesn't change the fact that they are complete idiots though.

You don't think perhaps the idiots might be the people who repeatedly ****ed over their country and made them turn to stuff like this in the first place?

Maybe, depends on each individual situation. But even so, the Muslims in this case are still morons. And that's really what I'm talking about. Nobody "made" them turn to this. Nobody made some Muslims kill innocent people because a book was burned by a Florida pastor, miles and miles away. Whether it's right or wrong, more people now are going to subscribe to the thought that Muslims are a bunch of savage idiots. I wouldn't participate in a holy book burning of any kind, but at the end of the day all the pastor did was light a book on fire.

I don't think we should be surprised they kill people for stuff like this. We should be surprised it doesn't happen more often.

Really? Are you blaming America or other countries for this? I don't agree with most of my country's military decisions either, I'm just asking what you think cause I sensed a little attitude in your last few posts. I'm personally not really surprised by anything that happens in the Middle East anymore, but I still find the mentality and logic shocking behind decisions like this.

That book is not the law, so stop trying to justify what they did with it. What kind of a stupid book promotes hatred, revenge, and violence?

And for the record, it says for them to inflict the injury on them according to what they did to you? They burned a book, killing is on a whole other level. You should really be ashamed for trying to justify cold-blooded murder against innocents (who didn't even take part in the burning).

And typical of you to cast America as some umbrella where an individual's actions represent the country as a whole's thoughts.

I should be ashamed? I just presented the facts. I never ONCE said I supported their beliefs, I was merely showing that unlike our 'western' ideals, they take such a thing as burning a Quran (the book of God's word) incredibly seriously.

When I say America, I mean the people running the country. I adore American's but not their politics.