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-   -   Prop 8 Ruled Unconstitutional (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/60772-prop-8-ruled-unconstitutional.html)

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger (Post 1153027)
So you only want to pass laws when they're popular with the majority now?
Hell if they passed tax laws by popularity your country would be skint in less than 24 hours.
Urban,

Stop changing the topic. OK. I am speaking about gay marriage. Gay Marriage will never be approved in all 50 states. That will never happen. That is a fantasy.

Janszoon 02-11-2012 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153030)
Urban,

Stop changing the topic. OK. I am speaking about gay marriage. Gay Marriage will never be approved in all 50 states. That will never happen. That is a fantasy.
I'm going to save this post so I can laugh at it once same-sex marriage is legal in all 50 states.

Urban Hat€monger ? 02-11-2012 08:57 AM
I am on topic.
I just asked you why you only think popular laws should be passed.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1153034)
I'm going to save this post so I can laugh at it once same-sex marriage is legal in all 50 states.
Trust me, it will never happen.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger (Post 1153035)
I am on topic.
I just asked you why you only think popular laws should be passed.
Because if you do it without people's approval than you will have another Proposition 8 again. Trust me, you don't want to occur again.

Janszoon 02-11-2012 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153047)
Trust me, it will never happen.
I don't trust you.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1153051)
I don't trust you.
You don't have too LOL. Gay Marriage in 50 states is a pure fantasy.

The Batlord 02-11-2012 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153047)
Trust me, it will never happen.
So, a nation's political and social beliefs don't change over time? It's not possible that America is slowing but surely becoming more and more liberal?

Janszoon 02-11-2012 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153054)
You don't have too LOL. Gay Marriage in 50 states is a pure fantasy.
I'll save this post too.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1153055)
So, a nation's political and social beliefs don't change over time? It's not possible that America is slowing but surely becoming more and more liberal?
Maybe on other issues but on Gay Marriage, it won't change a bit. Most Americans still disapprove Gay Marriage.

The Batlord 02-11-2012 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153093)
Maybe on other issues but on Gay Marriage, it won't change a bit.
Why?

Quote:
Most Americans still disapprove Gay Marriage.
I don't buy that, but assuming I did, why would the current state of people's opinions mean that those opinions can't change?

midnight rain 02-11-2012 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153093)
Maybe on other issues but on Gay Marriage, it won't change a bit. Most Americans still disapprove Gay Marriage.
My question is why do you oppose gay marriage?

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1153100)
My question is why do you oppose gay marriage?
I believe that a normal relationship is between two opposite sex which are a man and a woman. That is what I believe. Man and Woman come together to have a union and hopefully get children. That is what I believe.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1153097)
Why?



I don't buy that, but assuming I did, why would the current state of people's opinions mean that those opinions can't change?
Again, even today most Americans still refuse to see Gay Marriage. California is a good example. The state passed it but when people voted, they voted to reappeal Gay Marriage. Gay Marriage will never be legalized in all states.

midnight rain 02-11-2012 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153104)
I believe that a normal relationship is between two opposite sex which are a man and a woman. That is what I believe. Man and Woman come together to have a union and hopefully get children. That is what I believe.
So what makes your belief supreme over all other beliefs?

Would you deny that homosexuality is natural?

Janszoon 02-11-2012 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153107)
Again, even today most Americans still refuse to see Gay Marriage. California is a good example. The state passed it but when people voted, they voted to reappeal Gay Marriage. Gay Marriage will never be legalized in all states.
Print this out and hang it on your wall. Go back and re-read every decade or two.

The Batlord 02-11-2012 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153107)
Again, even today most Americans still refuse to see Gay Marriage. California is a good example. The state passed it but when people voted, they voted to reappeal Gay Marriage. Gay Marriage will never be legalized in all states.
Arg. I'm not asking you why think that people don't support gay marriage right NOW. I'm asking you why you think that people's opinions on gay marriage won't change like their opinions on other social issues are changing?

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1153118)
Arg. I'm not asking you why think that people don't support gay marriage right NOW. I'm asking you why you think that people's opinions on gay marriage won't change like their opinions on other social issues are changing?
Because you will still enough people learning how homosexulity is. By the time some children grow up, they too get that learning and pretty much opposed Gay Marrige.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1153110)
So what makes your belief supreme over all other beliefs?

Would you deny that homosexuality is natural?
Homosexuality is natural but it is not right. However I do not hate homosexuals.

The Batlord 02-11-2012 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153124)
Because you will still enough people learning how homosexulity is. By the time some children grow up, they too get that learning and pretty much opposed Gay Marrige.
Really? And what is homosexuality like? What will the children realize? Specifically?

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1153128)
Really? And what is homosexuality like? What will the children realize? Specifically?
I meant that parents who dislike gay marriage tell their children the consquences of being gay and stuff like that. They also tell them that gay marriage is wrong. Most kids grow up with that and think the same.

The Batlord 02-11-2012 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153131)
I meant that parents who dislike gay marriage tell their children the consquences of being gay and stuff like that. They also tell them that gay marriage is wrong. Most kids grow up with that and think the same.
And you don't think that's changing? In the western world homosexuality used to be illegal, and now they're actually talking about legalizing gay marriage. That's not change?

Rubato 02-11-2012 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153131)
I meant that parents who dislike gay marriage tell their children the consquences of being gay and stuff like that. They also tell them that gay marriage is wrong. Most kids grow up with that and think the same.
With the amount of controversy around the subject I'd say it's quite the opposite, People begin to accept the idea as it becomes more and more part of society, the stubborn oldies die off and their kids are wondering what the **** their parents were babbling on about.

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/...aymarriage.gif

Frownland 02-11-2012 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153131)
I meant that parents who dislike gay marriage tell their children the consquences of being gay and stuff like that. They also tell them that gay marriage is wrong. Most kids grow up with that and think the same.
My parents told me that being a homosexual is about as horrible of a person that you could get, and my dad told me that he would prefer me to be a rapist as opposed to a homosexual.
I'm straight, so I don't know if that's a factor of my father's constant belittlement of homosexuals, but I'm far more open to homosexuals than he ever thought was possible. So parents telling their children that homosexuality is evil does not immediately make the child hate homosexuals as well once they are older and more mature.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1153132)
And you don't think that's changing? In the western world homosexuality used to be illegal, and now they're actually talking about legalizing gay marriage. That's not change?
I know that but will it happen in all 50 states. NOPE. NOT AT ALL. As long as Blacks, Religious, and other groups don't accept it than Gay Marriage will go nowhere but in a few states not enough though.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-11-2012 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubato (Post 1153134)
With the amount of controversy around the subject I'd say it's quite the opposite, People begin to accept the idea as it becomes more and more part of society, the stubborn oldies die off and their kids are wondering what the **** their parents were babbling on about.

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/...aymarriage.gif
They may accept gay people but that does not that most Americans approve Gay Marriage. No matter what, Gay Marriage will still be a issue that can never be resolved.

Urban Hat€monger ? 02-11-2012 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153139)
They may accept gay people but that does not that most Americans approve Gay Marriage. No matter what, Gay Marriage will still be a issue that can never be resolved.
They don't need to.
You just said that 47% supported it.

If a political party got 47% of the popular vote in a general election they'd consider it a landslide.

Unknown Soldier 02-11-2012 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153104)
I believe that a normal relationship is between two opposite sex which are a man and a woman. That is what I believe. Man and Woman come together to have a union and hopefully get children. That is what I believe.
I once knew somebody like you at university, he was a bit of tight-arsed prude like yourself really (excuse the pun). He would often go on about his disdain of gays and lesbians, and about how it just wasn't natural and how it went against Gods will. He was eventually shunned and laughed at by most other people much to his dismay, I wonder if he still believes this diatribe. I just thought I'd share this experience with you.

Salami 02-11-2012 03:47 PM
I think there are a few important points here that should be raised.

Firstly, there's the question of something being RIGHT the same as something popular. It may not be a popular decision to make gay marriage legal, but this bypasses the question of the nature of marriage: should it be exclusively between man and woman? Or does the right of two people who love each other to share that love come first? Does it matter who they are?
So - if people don't want gay marriage (the evidence for this is itself questionable), then it really ought to be asked if the objection to it is a reasonable one, even if popular.
Should other people have a right to impose their restrictions and reservations upon other people's private lives, impeding the happiness of people who do love each other?

Above 02-11-2012 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153054)
Gay Marriage in 50 states is a pure fantasy.
You fantasize about Gay Marriage?

GAY.

ThePhanastasio 02-11-2012 09:18 PM
Marriage is a man-made convention, not a god-made one, as much as people will blather on endlessly about Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve and all that silliness.

As such, laws change. It's not illegal in the states for women to have jobs. It's not illegal for people to practice religions that aren't Christianity. It's just commonplace, and accepted.

Like any group experiencing any manner of persecution, the tides are turning in favor of the homosexual population, at long last. 50 years from now, it will be ludicrous to people that gay marriage was ever even illegal. Mark my words.

And that's a good thing.

Franco Pepe Kalle 02-12-2012 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1153172)
I once knew somebody like you at university, he was a bit of tight-arsed prude like yourself really (excuse the pun). He would often go on about his disdain of gays and lesbians, and about how it just wasn't natural and how it went against Gods will. He was eventually shunned and laughed at by most other people much to his dismay, I wonder if he still believes this diatribe. I just thought I'd share this experience with you.
CAN YOU READ. I did not say that homosexual was not natural. Plus that hsi opinion.

Here is what I said

Homosexuality is natural but it is not right. However I do not hate homosexuals.

Maybe you should have read that before running your mouth. Jeez.

Salami 02-12-2012 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhanastasio (Post 1153388)
Marriage is a man-made convention, not a god-made one, as much as people will blather on endlessly about Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve and all that silliness.
This is a good point, but even if you think it's a divine covenant, it makes not difference whatsoever to whether gay marriage should be considered illegitimate. I feel like repeating my objection to people who like to claim scriptural support for prohibiting gay marriage:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ME
I feel that what many people, especially in the USA, disapprove of gay marriage is from the Bible, especially since most people arguing against gay marriage seem to be Christians. I have looked at the verses in question, and found them completely unconvincing.

I looked more carefully at these verses. The one in Leviticus prohibiting a man lying with another man on pain of being stoned to death was one of the Church's favourites. Yet, when looked at in context, it is noticed that this is in THE SAME VERSE as trimming one's facial hair is also forbidden on pain of death. Unless one insists on keeping every other one of the 613 laws, it makes no sense to use that law as an imposition on the present. Even if you do, how should one cherry-pick the scripture - by what authority should you consider some laws relevant to today's society but others no longer required?

After reading other verses in the same way, I decided that the scriptural evidence for homosexuality being a sin was very poor indeed: even for Sodom and Gomorrah it was only referring to the acts being "sinful" in that circumstance - not necessarily implying that homosexuality itself is a sin.
Quote:
As such, laws change. It's not illegal in the states for women to have jobs. It's not illegal for people to practice religions that aren't Christianity. It's just commonplace, and accepted.

Like any group experiencing any manner of persecution, the tides are turning in favor of the homosexual population, at long last. 50 years from now, it will be ludicrous to people that gay marriage was ever even illegal. Mark my words.

And that's a good thing.
I fully agree with this. Persecution is probably the best term for it, and ultimately, what right do you have to dictate how other people enjoy each other's company?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153570)
CAN YOU READ. I did not say that homosexual was not natural. Plus that hsi opinion.

Here is what I said

Homosexuality is natural but it is not right. However I do not hate homosexuals.

Maybe you should have read that before running your mouth. Jeez.
He's taking issue here with your claim that homosexuality is wrong. I'd like to ask where exactly you get that idea from?
If it is from the Bible, please see my previous post: My thoughts on this issue

If your objection is not from the Bible, what on earth could be the problem?

Above 02-12-2012 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153570)
Homosexuality is natural but it is not right
Explain how a man loving another man isn't right.

Unknown Soldier 02-12-2012 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153570)
Homosexuality is natural but it is not right. However I do not hate homosexuals.
Franco Pepe Kalle is natural but he's not right in the head. However I do not hate people like him.

Now that sentence of mine, probably makes more sense than yours.

Sansa Stark 02-12-2012 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153570)
CAN YOU READ. I did not say that homosexual was not natural. Plus that hsi opinion.

Here is what I said

Homosexuality is natural but it is not right. However I do not hate homosexuals.

Maybe you should have read that before running your mouth. Jeez.
How is something between two consenting adults wrong, exactly? If you were arguing against rape or paedophilia I could understand but what is so wrong about being gay?

Is it because they don't normally produce children? I mean they can of course, with surrogates and sperm donors and whatever, but how really necessary is producing children in an overpopulated world?

Above 02-12-2012 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paloma (Post 1153646)
Is it because they don't normally produce children? I mean they can of course, with surrogates and sperm donors and whatever, but how really necessary is producing children in an overpopulated world?
Sometimes I think homosexuality is an evolutionary form of population control.

someonecompletelyrandom 02-12-2012 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle (Post 1153570)
CAN YOU READ. I did not say that homosexual was not natural. Plus that hsi opinion.

Here is what I said

Homosexuality is natural but it is not right. However I do not hate homosexuals.

Maybe you should have read that before running your mouth. Jeez.
Why would you view homosexuality as "natural" but insist that it's "wrong"? Seeing as reproduction isn't a possibility I'd say homosexuality is completely unnatural technically, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

FaSho 02-12-2012 11:17 AM
Why do gays want to get married?

Above 02-12-2012 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FaSho (Post 1153665)
Why do gays want to get married?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Rights Act 1998
The right to marry and to start a family.
Because it's a human right?


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