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Old 12-03-2012, 02:27 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:08 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:39 AM   #23 (permalink)
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So by posting my beliefs and why I believe them, I'm attempting to "out-Jesus" Christians? I explained why I disagree with Christianity on a personal moral level, how is that boasting my elitism? Seems to me you read into it the way you wanted to.

I don't understand the defensiveness, I didn't attack Christians and try to convert them, I didn't try to use science to prove Christianity irrational. You guys are too focused on pussy-footing around the subject, I explained why I don't take comfort in a widely accepted afterlife and that's it. Maybe next time leave your preconceived notions at the door cause I don't think you know what the **** you're talking about.
I'm hungover, so allow me to be brief:

1. You disagree on moral grounds.

2. Morality is a fundamentally religious concept.

3. The entire point of any given moral system is it's "the best".
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:43 AM   #24 (permalink)
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2. Morality is a fundamentally religious concept.
Unproven assertion.

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Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop View Post
3. The entire point of any given moral system is it's "the best".
Unproven assertion.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:47 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I'm hungover, so allow me to be brief:

1. You disagree on moral grounds.

2. Morality is a fundamentally religious concept.

3. The entire point of any given moral system is it's "the best".
1. Correct.

2. Incorrect. Morality is fundamentally a societal concept.

3. Can you expound on that?
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:07 AM   #26 (permalink)
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slappyjenkins, I think you will find this book fascinating. It's about "missing links", experimental (controlled) evolution and such. The theory of evolution went long way since Darwin's days.

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Old 12-03-2012, 10:15 AM   #27 (permalink)
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1. Correct.

2. Incorrect. Morality is fundamentally a societal concept.

3. Can you expound on that?
Have you ever read Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan? Morality as a societal concept is a central theme, but more specifically, political morality. I'm certain that Hobbes was an atheist based on statements he makes in there.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:10 AM   #28 (permalink)
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The entire point of any moral system is "it's the best"
Unproven assertion.
That doesn't need to be proven.

Your morals are the best. If you genuinely thought they weren't then you wouldn't have them to begin with.

If you change your morals, you change it to the best one. If your morals include "my morals aren't necessarily the best" then you're still following your set of morals, which are the best.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:26 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Have you ever read Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan? Morality as a societal concept is a central theme, but more specifically, political morality. I'm certain that Hobbes was an atheist based on statements he makes in there.
I have not, although reading Wikipedia's brief summary and some excerpts, I can certainly say that I stand by some of his positions, and not so much others .

I'm definitely in agreement with this section though:
Quote:
Hobbes begins his treatise on politics with an account of human nature. He presents an image of man as matter in motion, attempting to show through example how everything about humanity can be explained materialistically, that is, without recourse to an incorporeal, immaterial soul or a faculty for understanding ideas that are external to the human mind. Hobbes proceeds by defining terms clearly, and in an unsentimental way. Good and evil are nothing more than terms used to denote an individual's appetites and desires, while these appetites and desires are nothing more than the tendency to move toward or away from an object. Hope is nothing more than an appetite for a thing combined with opinion that it can be had. He suggests the dominant political theology of the time, Scholasticism, thrives on confused definitions of everyday words, such as incorporeal substance, which for Hobbes is a contradiction in terms.
What I found interesting about the book was that he advocated for a holistic religion determined by the sovereign, if they should so choose. Obviously something that I would completely disagree with, but interesting nonetheless.
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In Leviathan, Hobbes explicitly states that the sovereign has authority to assert power over matters of faith and doctrine, and that if he does not do so, he invites discord. Hobbes presents his own religious theory, but states that he would defer to the will of the sovereign (when that was re-established: again, Leviathan was written during the Civil War) as to whether his theory was acceptable. Tuck argues that it further marks Hobbes as a supporter of the religious policy of the post-Civil War English republic, Independency.[citation needed]
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:31 AM   #30 (permalink)
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That doesn't need to be proven.
Sure it does. He's making an assertion, he needs to back it up.

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Your morals are the best. If you genuinely thought they weren't then you wouldn't have them to begin with.

If you change your morals, you change it to the best one. If your morals include "my morals aren't necessarily the best" then you're still following your set of morals, which are the best.
I see a lot of assumptions there. Who's to say people always change their morals to "the best" ones? Who's to say you can't have a set of morals while still believing they are equal to some other set of morals?
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