In a universe of infinite space and time, is it possible for something to happen once

Guybrush · 12-07-2012, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face

Anything isn't possible given an infinite amount of space and time if there are constants/laws governing it within it. The four fundamental ones being gravity, electromagnetic, strong and weak forces, whose laws do not change given infinite time or space.

You can have an infinite amount of possibilities without including everything conceivable being possible. An infinite amount of time and space does not mean any thing you can imagine, such as a person being smaller than a single atom or that light stops reflecting, will happen.

Yup, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face

I agree. For example, if all the universe contained was a bomb, and it detonated then no matter how much time and space you give it, those particles will never meet again, let alone undo irreversible reactions into a re-formed bomb.

wiggums · 12-07-2012, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face

You can have an infinite amount of possibilities without including everything conceivable being possible. An infinite amount of time and space does not mean any thing you can imagine, such as a person being smaller than a single atom or that light stops reflecting, will happen.

The question is could something happen just once. Of course those things will never happen, but if they could occur once, why not twice?

To respond to your bomb argument, I would argue that (besides it being completely preposterous, and it could never happen even once) quantum physics is very different than our physics, and when something seemingly is empty, particles have been known to appear mysteriously. I'm not saying they pop out of nowhere, but they do seem to be formed in a matter by which we don't completely understand.

My answer to the question: No. If something happens once in an infinite universe, it will happen again. If you're sitting at the casino long enough, you're going to get a jackpot at some point.

Guybrush · 12-07-2012, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggums

My answer to the question: No. If something happens once in an infinite universe, it will happen again. If you're sitting at the casino long enough, you're going to get a jackpot at some point.

Well, let's say you fall into an active volcano and your body is reduced to ashes and your life is snuffed out. How many times can this happen to you?

Key · 12-07-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Well, let's say you fall into an active volcano and your body is reduced to ashes and your life is snuffed out. How many times can this happen to you?

Twice. Just in case you wake up and do it in real life.

Guybrush · 12-07-2012, 11:50 AM

My example is a matter of perspective and it's a bit on the side from what Face was talking about (but still relevant, I think), while I also agree with Face's position which is more on the lines of this .. let's say that in the infinite space/time universe, at the start of it, all matter is in one place, but then it explodes and all matter travels outwards from the blast and drifts further and further away from the other matter in the universe. The physical laws happen to be so that this outward movement away from the blast origin will never stop and so even over infinite time, matter will only travel outwards.

Clearly in this instance, the initial blast was a one time event because the physical laws of the universe do not allow for there to be any probability of the event ever happening again.

Face · 12-07-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggums

The question is could something happen just once. Of course those things will never happen, but if they could occur once, why not twice?

To respond to your bomb argument, I would argue that (besides it being completely preposterous, and it could never happen even once) quantum physics is very different than our physics, and when something seemingly is empty, particles have been known to appear mysteriously. I'm not saying they pop out of nowhere, but they do seem to be formed in a matter by which we don't completely understand.

My answer to the question: No. If something happens once in an infinite universe, it will happen again. If you're sitting at the casino long enough, you're going to get a jackpot at some point.

The possibility of a jackpot ALWAYS exists by definition in a casino.

But lets say there is only one prize to win. You will win it, but after that there's nothing left to win, no matter how many times, you roll the dice, or get t a result that would've won you the jackpot, it's gone.

Replace the dumb bomb idea with one super-giant star in the entire universe. It goes supernova and collapses into a black hole. This is a one off event and will only occur once, infinite time and space won't change that.

HOWEVER, if you want to assume that more matter will spawn into existence, then obviously it could happen again, anything could, but then only one supernova will occur for each subsequent spawning of sufficient matter. But that isn't due to infinite time and space, but infinite time, space, and generation of energy/matter, which violates our current understanding of the universe.

edit: well said tore.

wiggums · 12-07-2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Well, let's say you fall into an active volcano and your body is reduced to ashes and your life is snuffed out. How many times can this happen to you?

Well eventually a new earth will be created exactly in the same spot, humanity will rise coincidentally exactly like it had before, and I'll go up on that volcano and do it again. :3

Guybrush · 12-07-2012, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggums

Well eventually a new earth will be created exactly in the same spot, humanity will rise coincidentally exactly like it had before, and I'll go up on that volcano and do it again. :3

Well, I would say that second guy wouldn't be you. It would be a guy that looks like you perhaps!

wiggums · 12-07-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Well, I would say that second guy wouldn't be you. It would be a guy that looks like you perhaps!

Well I guess that is the problem, I think it would be me. He'd be exactly like me, think like me, and have all the same experiences. How would it be different than me? (Besides the fact that he took place years later)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face

The possibility of a jackpot ALWAYS exists by definition in a casino.

But lets say there is only one prize to win. You will win it, but after that there's nothing left to win, no matter how many times, you roll the dice, or get t a result that would've won you the jackpot, it's gone.

Replace the dumb bomb idea with one super-giant star in the entire universe. It goes supernova and collapses into a black hole. This is a one off event and will only occur once, infinite time and space won't change that.

HOWEVER, if you want to assume that more matter will spawn into existence, then obviously it could happen again, anything could, but then only one supernova will occur for each subsequent spawning of sufficient matter. But that isn't due to infinite time and space, but infinite time, space, and generation of energy/matter, which violates our current understanding of the universe.

I'm assuming that the jackpot doesn't have 1 prize. I'm not convinced that something could actually only take place and cause itself to never occur again.

Ok, I won't assume that matter will spawn, but you can't assume that matter can't be destroyed either. If a star collapsed, who is to say that the exact same matter/energy won't somehow be recreated in the exact same way? It's extremely unlikely, sure, but that's where my jackpot comment comes in.

Guybrush · 12-07-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggums

Well I guess that is the problem, I think it would be me. He'd be exactly like me, think like me, and have all the same experiences. How would it be different than me? (Besides the fact that he took place years later)

From a certain point of view, you could argue that every event that takes place is unique for happening in that place at that time and, once done, can never happen again. And from that point of view, you will only exist once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggums

I'm assuming that the jackpot doesn't have 1 prize. I'm not convinced that something could actually only take place and cause itself to never occur again.

Ok, I won't assume that matter will spawn, but you can't assume that matter can't be destroyed either. If a star collapsed, who is to say that the exact same matter/energy won't somehow be recreated in the exact same way? It's extremely unlikely, sure, but that's where my jackpot comment comes in.

Recreated? Why would it be recreated in the same way?

If there is a constant, infinite, unchangeable law called gravity that traps that matter in that black hole for eternity and there is no event that can take place in the universe that can ever cause that matter to exist anywhere than in that black hole once that event has taken place, then of course the probability of that matter doing anything but exist as part of a black hole is non-existant. At that point, how would the event repeat itself?

12-07-2012, 11:50 AM	#35 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	My example is a matter of perspective and it's a bit on the side from what Face was talking about (but still relevant, I think), while I also agree with Face's position which is more on the lines of this .. let's say that in the infinite space/time universe, at the start of it, all matter is in one place, but then it explodes and all matter travels outwards from the blast and drifts further and further away from the other matter in the universe. The physical laws happen to be so that this outward movement away from the blast origin will never stop and so even over infinite time, matter will only travel outwards. Clearly in this instance, the initial blast was a one time event because the physical laws of the universe do not allow for there to be any probability of the event ever happening again. __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 12-07-2012 at 12:00 PM.