2 British girls arrested for drug smuggling in Peru

Trollheart · 08-26-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

It sounds to me like you favor an amoral system of laws that demands obedience through fear rather than any kind of moral obligation.

I don't know how you can claim such empathy for the victims but then turn around and feel nothing for the accused. It would be one thing if these were hardened, violent criminals, but your contempt for people who are really just idiots shows more callousness than it does respect for justice.

I know that all sounds like personal attacks, but the problem I have with the modern criminal justice system is that it seems more like vengeance than any kind of justice and I think that needs to be pointed out. If all you want is to punish them then put their eyes out and be done with it, but if you want justice then start thinking about rehabilitation rather than throwing non-violent morons into a dungeon for two decades to rot.

Yeah but you seem to be going the other way, like "it's not their fault, let them go, they knew no better". I mean, come on, wtf? This from a man whose tagline says "children should die"? I know it's a joke but you've never come across to me as someone who would advocate going easy on criminals. It's not like they were forced to do it (despite their swiss cheese story)!

Next you'll be saying that hit men shouldn't be jailed as they're just carrying out the orders of a higher-up! The whole "I was only following orders" or "I'm a small cog in a larger wheel" argument doesn't wash with me. US's community service thing might or might not work, but what do you say the solution should be? How would you discourage people from doing this? Would you discourage them, or do you just think it's me getting my knickers in a twist over something small?

(I like the idea of putting out their eyes, though...)

Seriously, I'd like to know: what solution/sentence do or would you propose for this sort of crime? Never mind who's ultimately responsible; those who take the risks and want to share in the spoils should be prepared to share in the punishment, so please don't tell me they're unwitting pawns or something...

Unknown Soldier · 08-26-2013, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Next you'll be saying that hit men shouldn't be jailed as they're just carrying out the orders of a higher-up! The whole "I was only following orders" or "I'm a small cog in a larger wheel" argument doesn't wash with me.

Using a hitman as an example is not a very good one. A hitman is normally an ex-military or espionage agent that has decided to use their skills as an assassin. They're professionals that are normally well remunerated and fully aware of the environment that they're working in. The average drug mule is normally somebody that is easy and vulnerable prey for the drug cartels and is on the promise of easy money, which they may or may not even get.

Quote:

US's community service thing might or might not work, but what do you say the solution should be?

The community service concept would work, it the Peruvian authorities were remotely interested in the rehabilitation of the offender and what the offender could offer the local community. But they're not and seem to view making examples with punitive punishments their top priority here. But then again should anything else be expected from them, they have no real concept of democracy and fairness in justice is simply an alien concept to them.

Trollheart · 08-26-2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Using a hitman as an example is not a very good one.

Yeah I know. I couldn't think of another one off the top of my head and I was on the way out the door...

Quote:

The community service concept would work, it the Peruvian authorities were remotely interested in the rehabilitation of the offender and what the offender could offer the local community. But they're not and seem to view making examples with punitive punishments their top priority here. But then again should anything else be expected from them, they have no real concept of democracy and fairness in justice is simply an alien concept to them.

Yeah but I want to know what HIS solution or suggestion is...

Trollheart · 08-26-2013, 03:25 PM

On a slightly non-related subject, 216 your avatar is giving me a headache.

Unknown Soldier · 08-26-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yeah but I want to know what HIS solution or suggestion is...

Sorry if I was trying to wear the bat cape again, I go back to being the riddler again.

Also your last 'quote' wasn't done properly and it looks like I've written it.

The Batlord · 08-27-2013, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yeah but you seem to be going the other way, like "it's not their fault, let them go, they knew no better". I mean, come on, wtf? This from a man whose tagline says "children should die"? I know it's a joke but you've never come across to me as someone who would advocate going easy on criminals. It's not like they were forced to do it (despite their swiss cheese story)!

I'm not arguing that at all. They certainly did the crime and should be dealt with accordingly. I'm saying that they're idiots, not violent criminals. People who need to be removed from society should get long-term sentences (well, I have opinions on that, but for the purposes of the current justice system we'll say that) not naive morons who are probably just entertaining romantic Scar Face fantasies. They may know about the consequences of drug smuggling, both on themselves and on the people who will buy the drugs, but I doubt they have any real, visceral appreciation for them on the perceptual level, just like a teen drunk driver likely knows they might kill themselves, but the possibility isn't really "real" to them.

P.S. I don't really care about these people, I just have an issue with your line of reasoning in general and feel it to be irrational and harmful.

Quote:

Next you'll be saying that hit men shouldn't be jailed as they're just carrying out the orders of a higher-up! The whole "I was only following orders" or "I'm a small cog in a larger wheel" argument doesn't wash with me. US's community service thing might or might not work, but what do you say the solution should be? How would you discourage people from doing this? Would you discourage them, or do you just think it's me getting my knickers in a twist over something small?

Hitmen are violent criminals. See above.

Quote:

Seriously, I'd like to know: what solution/sentence do or would you propose for this sort of crime? Never mind who's ultimately responsible; those who take the risks and want to share in the spoils should be prepared to share in the punishment, so please don't tell me they're unwitting pawns or something...

Well, for starters, a five years sentence is about as fair as we're going to get I imagine. In a perfect world though this whole concept of justice as punishment should be done away with. I don't believe in free will, at least not in some magical, religious form. I think our actions are as predetermined by mathematics as a bouncing ball or any other inanimate object. If that's true then the concept of responsibility is based on faulty logic, and punishing people for something because they are "responsible" is as irrational as punishing an asteroid for killing the dinosaurs. The justice system, rather than worrying about punishment, should treat a crime as evidence of some kind of social dysfunction that needs to be "fixed".

If this particular argument goes much farther then it might make sense to split it into its own thread.

Trollheart · 08-27-2013, 09:39 AM

This is all well and good, but the fundamental question remains: where is my list of poseur metal bands?

The Batlord · 08-27-2013, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

This is all well and good, but the fundamental question remains: where is my list of poseur metal bands?

Quit sweatin' me, woman. Alterations must be made. You shall have your list, just keep your knickers on.

Trollheart · 08-27-2013, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Quit sweatin' me, woman. Alterations must be made. You shall have your list, just keep your knickers on.

How do you know I wear knickers? Who's been talking?

08-26-2013, 03:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	On a slightly non-related subject, 216 your avatar is giving me a headache. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-27-2013, 09:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	This is all well and good, but the fundamental question remains: where is my list of poseur metal bands? __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018