Racism vs. Classism
 

So, this topic seems to come up for me a lot in the last 6 months with various people and I thought I would just throw it out there, and see what comes back.

Personally, I feel like racism is a thing of the past (In the USA.) Now before you jump down my throat and tell me I am psychotic, hear me out.

I feel personally, that honestly no one gives a sh*t about the color of your skin, that is not to say that there are not a few Klansman roaming about, and some Neo-Nazis because for me to say they are not still out there would be just naive. But I am not going to waste my time arguing with the entire state of West Virgina, I am sorry I am just not gonna do it.

I feel like in 2014 the only color that matters to people is green. This is racism 2.0. The haves and the have nots. That is not to say that black people, and other 'minorities' haven't been pushed into ghettos throughout history. Because they have but that just throws them into the category of the have nots. And that is not a skin color issue, it's a wealth issue.Given the choice between a nice 5 bed room home in suburbia and the 2 bedrooom slum in the projects there isn't a person I know that would say I'll take this sh*t box thank you! The issue is not having the means to make it out. Money talks and bullsh*t walks, and if you have the money to buy that nice 5 bedroom dream house in the burbs there isn't anything about your race, or creed that could possibly bar you from getting in.

That being said, I ask myself why, 'my people', black people (I am just light skinned ppl don't get it twisted it's all sistah all day behind these green eyes.) get riled up over the 1950's playbook that our grandparents had handed to them. Not a black person under 60 knows what it was like to be beaten in the streets, hit with fire hoses, have dogs sicked on them, or lynched. And there most certainly isn't a black person living or dead that I know that knows what it is like to be kidnapped from their home and chained ass to ankle in a cargo ships and made to pick cotton, and serve the white man. I ask myself why we as a culture are so blinded to the fact this happened to our grandparents, and great great grandparents. That war is over, our great great grandparents,and grandparents paved that road, with blood, sweat and tears so that we as a culture can have what we have today. But I wonder exactly who will pave the road for my children, and their children to be considered equal in monetary fashion. Meaning, better education, better job opportunities, which leads to more cash in the back pocket which will take them right to that 5 bed room home if that's what they desire. Because no one, no matter the color should be looked at as less than because of what they have.

:soapbox: Ok I am done!;) But honestly I want feedback if you got it.

*Relevant to the topic*



I agree with you a Roxy i see racism as a thing of the past, racist ppl aren't the majority anymore, they've become the ignorant minority now that haven't adapted to the times.

Classicism will always exist though, it can't be helped, our social status does reflect alot the kind of life we are gonna have, with effort we can move up this social scale but it takes hard work and you have to take the white jobs the same rich white man used to get rich. either that or become an entertainer.

Still, the center of the world is not only the US there are other countries with unapologetic racist or sexist laws that got females looking like ninjas cause showing a little leg or cleavage is for sluts.

Will these countries ever catch up with the US?
Are they wrong for doing things differently?

I can't never answer this questions without being biased, there is a thin line in trying to help ppl and telling them how they should live.

As a white guy I always feel really uncomfortable making statements on behalf of 'other' people but I have to disagree (kinda) with you.

Racial profiling is still an issue. Interracial couples deal with pressure from parents and in society. You still get racist ass **** in popular culture like in that Transformers movie. I hated it so I don't remember the character's names or what part of the series it was but there was some seriously racist ass **** in at least one of them.

I totally agree with you that classism is a more prominent issue but I think that's just because it can and does affect anyone of any background. But racism still exists, it's just changed shape. I think we're on the right path, though. Attitudes and the things I used as examples are heavily scrutinized but they're still there.

You already know my stance on this Roxy since we have gone back and forth on this already but I highly disagree with you. The two issues go hand in hand but it's nice that you are able to just dismiss racism like it doesn't exist anymore. The fight of your parents and grandparents only helpled in certain ways but the system is still in place and currently discriminates against minorities whether you want to believe it or not.

Yes, money is powerful but not powerful enough to elevate someone past their racist ideals. Rich minorities are still go through prejudgice issues. They get pulled over just for being black.

You can't just throw your head in the sand saying 'la la la" Racism is in the past and it doesn't exist when it clearly does. It just isn't up front and in your face in the press as much as it used to be but it's clearly still around.

I always say that I rather someone speak up and let me know they are racist so I know where they are coming from instead of the people that end up being prejudiced against me while pretending they aren't racist. The sneaky racists.

I don't even know why you would still hold onto this argument in light of recent events in the press with Donald Sterling. Sure, he's an old white man so he's still holding onto resentment from his heydays but age doesn't excuse that there are plenty of other people that feel the same way about different minority groups.

The Dream released this song and I thought it was nice until the end when he uses the same tag line about classicism being the new racism which I think is bull****. Any talk of us being in a post-racial society is straight up ignorant imo.



Classicism is a big issue in this day and age but it goes hand in hand with the systematic racism that is placed on a large majority of people to create a ceiling where they can't get past.

Dude. Read what I wrote. I never said that it doesn't exsisit.
I said I'm not going to argue with the klansmen in West Virginia.
See your mentality, is my issue .
But as I know what you think I skipped your post, I am not gonna blow the thread arguing with you.
Honestly you and I dissagree, great.
Don't get mad if I skip ya brother because its not gonna go anywhere you and me talking.
Aside from my blood pressure going sky high.

You are definitely on some Pharrell **** with "New Black".

Changing a person's mentality isn't going to just end up ignoring their reality and what they have to go through on a day to day basis.

It just makes you seem disconnected from reality but yeah that's fine. I don't want you to respond to my posts in this thread because we have already had this discussion and I know where you stand and you obviously know where I stand.

If you haven't heard the Oprah interview with Pharrell this is what he said.

You can go on pretending that racism is just an issue in little backwater towns when it's not. It's not the reality that people have to live with day to day.

*officers pulls you over*

You: Oh sorry officer, I'm the New Black. Not like those others. My mentality has changed.

They're definitely both still active, however racism has become a form of modern prejudice, wherein prejudiced attitudes exist, but are not spoken or openly endorsed--at times are not even known by those who hold them.

This is an improvement; social norms now rule that racism is not cool, and people will go to great lengths to adhere to them, however, there are still as many studies that pop up which indicate a black man is more likely to be shot while holding a cellphone than a white man is, or that a first nations/native american child is more likely to be put into remedial school programs.

As for classism, it is inherently tied to racism. Our history of oppressing immigrants (voluntary or otherwise) has placed them at the bottom of the monetary hierarchy, and prejudice has been seen to help keep them there; it is without doubt more difficult for someone who is not white to get a job to earn the money to go to the school to get the qualifications to be hired for the well-paid job--and that itself is an oversimplification.

I am of course not denying that classism is a rampant, if not definitive problem for our time, but it's inseparable from other prejudices, and those other kinds of bias have by no means vanished.

As for people being angry about historical crimes, I understand it. I understand, because the oppression isn't gone. It's changed and it's lessened, but people are still disadvantaged by the colour of their skin, resulting from those historical crimes against humanity, and the rest of us are still implicitly impacted by them.

Prejudice truly is as easy as another's comment triggering a stereotype--that you don't even endorse. We are all with prejudices, however hard we each work to control them, and acknowledging that we are is the most important step in defeating them.

I disagree that "racism is a thing of the past" in the USA. Police and TSA still racially profile blacks and middle-easterners, respectively. That's essentially state-sanctioned racism. You have people in positions of authority setting an example (and don't forget about the whole deep south, where kids are still being raised racist). My wife's parents are racist. There's still plenty of explicitly racist supremacy groups exercising their right to free speech in the US.

That's not to undermine class discrimination. A rich black man can get a lot more done politically than a poor white man could. But a rich black man still has nothing on a rich white man (all else being equal).

Racism will probably always exist but i think Roxy was stating most ppl now don't have a racist mindset unless they haven't catched up to our modern times.

i mean some wiggas call each other 'nigga' emulating everything they can from a black man, i think that's a pretty clear sign racism is not as bad as it used to be.

I feel oppressed by those of african descent because they made my jewish ancestors build the pyramids then took all the credit for it.

Where's my ****in reparations?

You get none, you killed jesus christ.

Stop dwelling on the past.

That goes for everyone, especially the minorities who wait around for racism to end when its never going to. Stand the **** up and get ahead in life.

I agree to an extent, ive seen some black ppl use that as an excuse to justify giving up, i understand there is still prejudice towards race even in workplaces, and yes it is a setback but instead of giving up and blame the whiteman they should try to looking for a different job with equal opportunities.

i know this is easier said than done, but if they wanna hold you back because of your race you shouldn't let them.

There is a way for black men to be successful in america, it's not given on a silver plate like white ppl and it will probably be an uphill battle, but with enough effort you could even become the president of the US

i believe a lot of times non racist things get classified as racist by ppl who WANT the situation to be racist. that ties into the victim complex im always talkin bout. a lot of time its offender profiling or something and not real racism. most racism is subtle and behind closed doors and whatever ppl wanna say or do in private i dont really care about as long as they arent out actively searchin to destroy or oppress minorities.

this whole recent-ish internet movement about battiling to see whos more oppressed and less privilieged is very laughable to me and prob most ppl. theres certainly a willingness of ppl to justify their crappy lives to themselves and pin it on racism or whatever other exagerated belief they want to trick themself into believin. their lives will be the same regardless of that belief but if they can trick themself into thinking a certain way, it helps them justify things to themselves.

i dont think many ppl are truly held back by racism. classism, sure, but what are we really talkin about here?? nobody wants to help the poor areas and with good reason. stuff gets detroyed there and theres too many ppl who are scumbags to justify helpin the ppl who really wanna better themself. lets just be honest about that and be honest about a lot of ppl living in poverty not workin very hard to escape it.

i personally know ppl who need government assistance because they are usin it for the benefit of society. they are workin or goin to school or have hit a hardship and are tryin to work towards glory and using the extra money as an aid - not just livin off the money and bein pathetic leeches and a drain on society. so i am not sayin all poor ppl suck or whatever lol, but lets just call it like it is and admit theres tons and tons of ppl with no aspirations or drive to ever better themselves. they will be sittin on their porches whining about their oppression til the day they die instead of tryin to get better

i dont think theres a place for outward racism like saying the N word in public or something like that, or pickin a fight. i do understand where the racist mindset comes from since i grew uo around it. im more educated and have a better big persepctive on life so i dont adopt that mindset but i do believe i understand it better than a lot of ppl do. its hard to feel sorry for ppl when you have personal experiences and anedotes that tell you one thing but then some fershman sociiology major is tryin to tell you the opposite or whatever

My 4yo got kicked for not being Muslim today...

?

I don't know what I expected.

We're living in family housing in Canada. Lot's of people from Saudi Arabia here, wearing full burqas. Glaring at us like we're infidels. Today they were sharing candy and told my daughter she couldn't have any because she wasn't Muslim (whatever) but then later one of the boys kicked her when she was helping a friend sell chocolate around the apartment complex amd told her to go home. He was like 8.

I am now a minority, i will no longer check my privilege.

:laughing:

Great topic Roxy!

Here is my opinion:

I personally like talking about the issues mentioned in this thread because I think these are vital issues that still affect us today. Unfortunately, racism will always exist because America was built on racism and it is deeply embedded in our culture. Classicism exists BECAUSE of racism. It is the result of slavery, Jim Crow Laws, Lynchings, slave master rape, murders, hangings, shootings, Voting laws, politics, government etc, etc and ETC which is why there is so much unequal levels of classicism.

In our current society, racism is still very prevalent and still very much an issue that needs to be addressed it just exists on a different level. Instead of hangings and lynchings, we have implicit and institutionalized racism which is just as worse. We have micro aggression and indirect forms of prejudice attitudes that reflect racial stereotypes. We have racial profiling and non verbal gestures that reflect pre Civil Rights era of racism.

I know sometimes I have often mention race and racism on this board to support some of my arguments quite a bit in the past and notice that most of the posters disturbingly do not see racism as an issue. I personally think it is easy for white people/Caucasian to not think of it as an "issue" because it has never been an "issue" for them. As a African American, this is outrageously offensive to me.

White people do not have to worry about being stereotyped as a thug walking down the street with a hoody. White men do not have to worry about being stereotyped as a robber on the elevator by a white or even black woman. A group of white guys do not have to worry about being stereotyped as "drug dealers" while walking down the street at night. White woman do not have to worry about if their hair texture or skin color is acceptable to a Western oriented working environment/society like African American/minority women. An average looking white woman do not have to worry about being called beautiful by Western society while African American woman can only be called beautiful if they fit a certain European Westernized "standard" or have a certain skin color.

These are some of MANY issues white people do not have to worry about because they are "privileged". There skin color gives them power and automatically allows them to be receptive to opportunities that minorities will never have OR have to work MUCH harder for. There skin color has allowed them to control the way minorities are depicted and are represented in our society for over the last 500 years.

It is disturbing that the amount of people that listen to music do not understand the history of how certain genres were formed. I was alarmed that most here did not know that Hip Hop was actually created BECAUSE of the racism/discrimination that was prevalent against African Americans during the late 60's and 70's. I was taken back that some said racism had nothing to do with that when it actually was the main reason why Hip Hop was created. I think it is important for some here to have an open mind and not be afraid to talk about issues (racism, discrimination etc) that affected the creation of certain music. It might not be peaches and cream but it does not mean it should be ignored or swept under the rug. I don't care what race you are, White, Black, Blue or whatever it is still apart of music and needs to be addressed. It is insulting to act like it did not affect certain forms of music and that it never or doesn't still exist.

I personally will always address racism as an issue because it is still an important issue.I think we as a culture have gotten to comfortable and passive about issues that still affect us today. When I think of the Trayvon Martin case it just makes me sick to my stomach. If that had been a white young man it would not have been a discussion on where he was going that night and he would not have been stopped.

I just wonder if someone white or someone who does not think racism does not exist would feel the same way if they were stopped by the police multiple of times because of their skin color or if they were shot for no reason just because they were profiled as a "thug". You shouldn't have to experience certain things in order to be empathetic to the experiences of others but I guess for some people it might be necessary in order to really have a full of understanding of a culturally embedded problem that does not directly or indirectly affect YOU.

Roxy has a right to her opinion but I do agree with your perspectives on the issue.

GREAT post, Bravo!

I'm sorry but quite a few things that you said white people don't need to worry about being stereotyped as are just bull****. Just like you said white people don't know what it's like for african americans, the same ignorance can be said vice versa. Of course the issues faced by the different races aren't the same, but please don't act like you understand what it's like to be a different race when you clearly don't.

Actually I think I would know since I am a African American and have experienced some of the things mentioned in my post so don't you please tell me what not to act like as a minority. You clearly do not know what it is like.

Also can you intelligently explain why you disagree with my post instead of calling it b.s?

Realtalk he's sayin u only know what its like to be black. Just like how ppl like u are vonstantly sayin whites can never relate cause they only understand white. Same idea for ppl like u.

My stance is known but I will rrpeat briefly that you priv whiners out there are huge hypocrites if u complain about whites or whoever generalizing or stereotyping csuse ya do the same exact thing constantly

You misunderstood my post realtalk. Let me clarify:

Don't act like you understand what it's like to be a white person if you aren't, it's laughably hypocritical and makes your post one big contradiction.

"an average looking white woman do not have to worry about being called beautiful by Western society"

Why the **** you think that you know what white women worry about is beyond me. Of course they worry about being beautiful, this kind of stereotyping makes you as bad as the people you are complaining about.

Frankly, as a jew, I have it harder than any of you blacks because my lack of money really hits me where it hurts. You can never understand this pain.

Also, as a woman, I consider all race issues in America trivial since my kind are raped for our holes in this day and age on the regular. You just deal with some lost opportunities and hurt feelings. ****in grow a pair, your grandparents did.

But also... I'm sorry some white people suck. To be fair, black dudes stereotype me a lot by assuming I'm afraid of them, and as a woman who has punched a black dude who deserved it in the face, I find their lack of faith disturbing.

Lol it funny to bring the pity Olympics against realtalk because she is a black woman. So she as all your woman issues with the added racial stuff.

I am not trying to act like I understand what it is like to be "white". I am specifically speaking from my own experiences as well as the experiences of African American so not sure why you got that from my post.

A White person will never understand what it feels like to be stared at the mall because someone thinks you are going to steal something.

How is that acting like I "understand" what it is like to be white when I am talking about the experiences of African American/minorities?

ONCE AGAIN, Why do you assume that I think I know that when I am talking about African American women?

Western culture glorifies average looking white women as beautiful or African American women who are light skin who have European features. Are you honestly saying this is not true???

This is a well known observation that has been going on since the beginning of time and no I am sorry but I am not going to "sugar coat" the truth for you.

White woman do not have to worry about some of the issues African American women have to worry about and yes it can go vice versa but I am clearly and specifically talking about the black/minority experience so not sure why you keep arguing I am trying to understand what it is like to be "white" because that was not the point of my post and it is sad that you did not get the point.

It is nothing bad about pointing out stereotypes and representations that reflect/symbolize prejudice attitudes.

I am sorry about your situation..... but I respectfully disagree with you insisting that you have it harder than African Americans as a "race"

Also, I think it is sad that you think other racial issues besides your own issues are trivial. I highly doubt you would want people to consider your personal struggles trivial so I think its odd you think other racial issues are trivial. I also think most of this post is offensive.

I don't think I ever implied African American's can't be racist because anybody from any background can be racist. However Classicism is the result of Racism and prejudice attitudes and unfortunately minorities i.e. (African American, Latinos, Hispanics, etc) have had it the worse in that respect.

I think this entire argument is trivial, as classism and racism is dependent on where you live. There's always gonna be someone somewhere that doesn't like you for practically no reason.

Although I gotta point out something hilarious.... I've worked with a number of Africans, black Africans, and they hate African Americans.

This is what you said:

I thought this was offensive because I took this as you don't care about racism because you do not experience it and it is not a problem for you. Your last statement was outrageously ignorant.

Are you honestly mocking the Jim Crow Era???? Really??? You think that is funny?

Would you have liked it if your grandparents could not eat at a certain restaurant or was terrorized in their own neighborhoods because of the color of their skin?

If you think there are more important issues to worry about, fine but you dont have to be disrespectful and insensitive to people who do care about this issue and have experienced it.


This is EXACTLY why I made the comments I made earlier and I will just leave it at that.

You're right, I am being pretty disrespectful. But I can't help but to mock it, I know too many minority-belonging people who focus their intellect on more worldly concerns than to take this one seriously.

Also my great grandpa was a prisoner at Auschwitz, so.... yeah. Best not bring up times that don't concern us alive in the modern world.

You can't help but mock people who were raped, lynched, hung, and beaten?

You think it is "funny" that millions of innocent people were murdered because of the color of their skin?

I've seen this thread before. It doesn't end well.

:D

Thought the same.

Realtalk you need to start recognizin that other races than african americans have been oppressed. Maybe it was before the jim crow era but in some cases only several generations ago.


The government also has a lot of ways they try to help blacks which ironically bteeds its own racism

You are not just talking about African american women because you keep mentioning things that white people will never "feel" or never "understand what it feels like". That means you are making statements and assumptions about white people as well, and not just talking about african americans. You are putting ignorant opinions across as fact, as if you know how white women feel about beauty and you know that white men in hoodies are never worried about seen as 'thugs'. I can't comprehend how you can not see that your stereotypes and assumptions of white people make you as bad as people who stereotype african americans. Frankly, to quote you, I find it "outrageously offensive".

"Western culture glorifies average looking white women as beautiful" ?!

Yes, of course I am saying that this is not true, where the hell did you get that idea from. You think that western people don't think any dark skinned african american women are beautiful? And that most white women are seen as beautiful? That is just absurd. Everyone knows that the media can't be trusted to portray the general view of beauty (as they seemed to encourage anorexia a few years ago in their portrayal of beautiful women) but these media sources are not representative of the western view. I don't walk down the street thinking how all the white women I pass are beautiful while thinking otherwise of all the black women, and neither do many other people.

Your views are close minded and offensive. I hope you don't mind me pointing out your stereotypical views that reflect/symbolise your prejudicial attitudes.

I think your rationalization and the way you are interpreting my opinion is way off.

There is nothing about anything I said that suggests I am assuming what it is like to be white. I am just arguing that white people will never know what it is like to experience the issues and problems minorities experience AND they won't

At this point I really could care less how you interpret that because I think you are the one being close minded and offensive because you are not trying to be empathetic to the point I am trying to make. I continually speak from my own experiences and the experiences of African American but the only thing you seem to process from my posts is that I am trying to assume what it is like to be white. That is sad because you are only looking at my posts from your own point of view and interpreting what you want from it.





These are not "ignorant" opinions.

Have you ever taken Social Psychology, Micro aggression or Implicit/Explicit Racism? I study these types of issues and research supports that these issues commonly occur more within the minority community than Caucasian.

Once again, I am not speaking for white people when I mentioned them in my post. I was clearly only speaking on the experiences of African American and just arguing that White people will never know what it feels like to go through those experiences because they are "privileged"

That in no way suggests I am trying to analyze what it is like to be white when I am clearly only speaking of the experiences of African Americans.

Why is it so hard for you to mentally process that? Are you so close minded that you can not process that?




I am pointing out negative stereotypes that are commonly associated with being an African American or a minority that white people do not have to worry about.

So why are you insisting these are my "own" assumptions when these are well establish stereotypes that are culturally embedded in our society?


If anyone is being offensive, it is you because you are acting as if these stereotypes do not exist and that white people experiences the same issues with racism/discrimination as African American and they do not.

I find it down right hilarious you find my post offensive but did not call out the poster who was mocking slavery and African Americans who experience racism but you find so much wrong with my post.....



Why are you taking bits and pieces of my post and interpreting the way you want to. You are taking my statements out of context when you do that. You keep mentioning this statement but did you actually read the entire paragraph?




You just made a bunch of contradictions in this post.

If you argue that the media can not be trusted and that they control the general view of beauty why do you have a problem with me mentioning that the media promotes Western Ideals of beauty? That is pretty much the same thing. I am sorry but the media promotes and reinforces the Western principles of beauty which primarily favors Caucasian or Minority Women who appear Caucasian or have Caucasian features. This has been going on since the beginning of time. These are not my personal "assumptions". The media IS a representation of the Western view since we live in a Western society that is heavily dominated by the mass majority...










YOU might not think that but it still does not change that that is a stereotype that the media promotes as far as beauty goes.



I think your views are ignorant, close minded and offensive. I find some of the members here offensive when it comes down to this issue and I am not sure if it has to do with their race or background but it is troubling that most here are insensitive and oblivious about social issues that affect other races besides their own.