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Old 07-18-2014, 05:43 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The problem being many people's ignorance of any other use of the swastika other than as a Nazi symbol, which unnecessarily taints other representations that could otherwise be positive.

Fair enough, but I believe the symbol has well earned it's poisoned connotation. I see that symbol, I see Auschwitz and Treblinka. Other cultures don't, I get that. I wish they would.

I know you have to have the last word, Batty, so go ahead. My position is stated.
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Old 07-18-2014, 05:44 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The question is, why does there NEED to be a positive representation?

Yes it's a common, simple symbol used by a lot of people for a lot of things, yes it has a lot of history, and admittedly, in terms of timescale, its been a positive symbol for far longer than its been a negative one.

But WW2 and the Holocaust have literally shaped the world we live in today in a far more direct and irrevocable way than any other single event I know of. Everything from American Patriotism and status as a superpower, to nuclear power, popular culture, everything, stems from midwar and postwar culture.

The 50s American "Golden Age" wouldn't have happened without the American postwar need for entertainment and economic growth which was spurred on by huge advancements in American manufacturing. The way to the east would likely have remained closed and japan would be a very different place also. All of Europe would be unrecognisable. Russia would be ungodly powerful. China and Asia's positions in the world economy as manufacturing centers with cheap labour, would have developed differently and likely far more aggressively, etc etc.

I don't agree that there needs to be some movement that diminishes the importance of the symbols new meaning. Symbols and representations are a language and they evolve. Over time, being fat has gone from being a symbol of wealth and importance to a sign of impoverishment and reliance on cheap fast food. Wearing purple has changed from an opulent fashion trend reserved for the wealthy, to being a commonplace thing nobody would think twice about.

World War 2 changed completely the primary associations of that symbol. Much like obesity as a signifier of wealth and stature, it's prior connotations are now only of interest historically - there is no practical value to be gained from trying to change its meaning in the present day.

Yes, there are groups and religions of benign and presumably good people who still cling to older traditions that venerate the symbol for peaceful causes, and they should be afforded consideration - But to drag them into an argument about nulling the present-day meanings of their symbol does them a disservice - you're essentially asking them to defend their symbol at the cost of nulling the meaning the symbol currently carries - That of not only the huge worldwide impact of WW2, which shapes every tiny element of our lives, whether we're aware of it or not, but also the simpler meaning that, should it be forgotten, would be equivalent to forgetting millions of innocent people being murdered for the gain of a tyrant.
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Old 07-18-2014, 05:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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^ I'm glad you posted, GB, we're in agreement but you state the case far more eloquently than I.
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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You mean... an X with feet at the tips has been used before? ****, and I thought it was so original.

Next you're gonna tell me Earth isn't the only round planet. As if!
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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You mean... an X with feet at the tips has been used before? ****, and I thought it was so original.

Next you're gonna tell me Earth isn't the only round planet. As if!
To be fair, if the symbol was completely unoriginal there wouldn't be a problem with it. If the nazi party used a hollow circle as their symbol you would be hard pushed to relate every instace of a circle to WW2.
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
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To be fair, if the symbol was completely unoriginal there wouldn't be a problem with it. If the nazi party used a hollow circle as their symbol you would be hard pushed to relate every instace of a circle to WW2.
Its a red circle.

Do you think of

A) Japan
B) The Rising Sun
C) Zits
D) Japan
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:30 PM   #27 (permalink)
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there is no practical value to be gained from trying to change its meaning in the present day.
I agree with you if you are only considering American culture.

Cultures that used the symbol prior to WW2 still exist and shouldn't change because of an historical atrocity. I could see it affecting countries that were involved in WW2 but if your culture had nothing to do with it people shouldn't expect you to stop using it.

I wouldn't argue with you if you said maintaining cultural values is not a practical reason. I just wanted to make a point.

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Its a red circle.

Do you think of

A) Japan
B) The Rising Sun
C) Zits
D) Japan
That is totally dependent on the time and place. I certainly don't think of Japan every time I see a red circle.
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Last edited by DwnWthVwls; 07-18-2014 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:32 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Its a red circle.

Do you think of

A) Japan
B) The Rising Sun
C) Zits
D) Japan
I would have said a bullseye
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:45 PM   #29 (permalink)
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The argument thus presented in the form of a question of why does there need to be a positive representation of the swastika answers itself--to restore its meaning stolen by the likes of the poster who asked the question and those who agree him.

Someone said to go around town wearing one and see what happens as though this brilliant retort somehow negates my argument. It is precisely WHY the swastika should be unstagmatized in the West. Get over yourselves. You're no more important than anyone else--I know you don't believe that but, trust me on this one. And if we are going to be SO inflexibly self-righteous about this then make sure when you see that Buddhist monk (yes, we have a Buddhist monastery here in town) wearing a swastika medallion--go kick his f-ucking ass. And be sure to tell him that it doesn't matter why he wears it, it only matters what you think of it. The rest of our bright, educated society will back you--"Hell, who does he think he is? He shoulda known better'n to wear that. F-uck, I'da kicked his ass, too."

And while we're on the subject of how much WW2 and Holocaust changed society--so what?? So did the Inquisition, so did the Japanese-American Internment, so did the atom bomb. So did the millions of children sexually abused by the Catholic Church (remember, it's been going on for centuries) "But that's not even close!" REALLY?? Well, as long as we see fit to turn this into an ouch contest--go tell a sexual abuse survivor that what he went through was nothing compared to what the Nazis did. Tell that to an atom bomb survivor I'm sure they'll thank you for setting them straight.

The bottom line is that there is no credible reason that the swastika should be reviled because one group of murderers and thugs chose to use it as a symbol. That's happened many times in history but only the swastika has suffered that fate and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Before some self-righteous ass decides to lecture me again about the f-ucking Jews just remember that they weren't the only people to suffer in WW2 and they certainly weren't the only people to suffer in all of history. It's happened before, folks, it's happening right now and it will happen again. The truth is, it never stops happening but because of media brainwashing we have frozen this one period of suffering in time and elevated it above all other suffering to further Israel's ambitions and that is bulls-hit. And holding an ancient symbol responsible for that suffering is not only bulls-hit, it's retarded bulls-hit. Grow the f-uck up.
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:02 PM   #30 (permalink)
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then make sure when you see that Buddhist monk (yes, we have a Buddhist monastery here in town) wearing a swastika medallion--go kick his f-ucking ass. And be sure to tell him that it doesn't matter why he wears it, it only matters what you think of it
Resolving misunderstandings 101

Me: woah, what's with the swastika?!
Buddhist monk: what this? It's the tibetan symbol for eternity
Me: oh okay, cool. I did not know that.
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