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-   -   Policing Debate (Moved from the Confessional Thread) (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/82188-policing-debate-moved-confessional-thread.html)

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 07:51 AM
Policing Debate (Moved from the Confessional Thread)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1593880)
I don't agree that marijuana should be illegal. But society does, and so, I will do my job and enforce that law. That doesn't mean I might be more lenient because of it, sure, I might. But a lot of that too comes from how you approach me. If you're a douchebag about it, guess what? You're probably going to get what the law says you should get. If you're cool with me, I'm going to be cool with you. On the flip side of the same coin, if you wanted help, I would personally take you to an addiction counselor or program because that is my career. See the difference?
Nope. Pick a side, either enforce it or don't. It's not your job to police people based on their attitude towards you. If you don't believe it's right to ticket people for smoking weed then don't harass them, and if you do then do it to everyone.

Also, you're not serving your country. You're serving the political agendas of the government/big businesses, or town government/finances (quotas are bullshit). There are very few instances(relatively speaking) that I've ever seen of a cop/military man serving their community/country.

You do what your told by people who do not represent the average American.

fiddler 05-26-2015 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoxyRollah (Post 1593892)
Ok, so I dig that 70% of people more than likely join the police force in hopes of making the world a better place. I respect that, and personally, I haven't ever been a dick to the police, even when having my face rearranged a second time. But ok, like that story I told you and Exo and some other people the other day is a prime example of people taking their job to the extreme and not reading in between the lines. I am just gonna use that as a format for what I am gonna say.

So right, shotgun in my face and sitting in my car, do you think I was anything but polite to the police? Honestly. When they started screaming where are the drugs and I just held my hand out the window and turned it over to them was it really necessary to pull me outta the car and bounce my head off the car? Nope. Like I said to you guys in plug, there is absolutely nothing threatening about me. Like nothing. I have even made the extra effort to be kind, and respectful, by addressing cops by their rank ect all my life.

Now that is the only time I have ever had a bad experience with the police.(Make no mistake, I have had some very serious run ins with the police. And have walked away from them by the skin of my teeth.) I have also had some minor run ins with them as well.

That particular day I got popped, I didn't want to be breaking the law. I got my ass beat into submission. And I was literally in fear for my life and or safety if I didn't do what was asked of me.

So here you have someone that is broken, right, it's written all over their face their brokenness, and in the way they talk and act, how on God's green earth are you gonna take a bruised, beaten, and bleeding woman to jail after beating her up even more, and then capping it off with a felony jacket. WHEN SHE HAS NO RECORD MIND YOU.

So because of that day, because I was delt a **** hand, a very very **** hand, I am forced to register myself as a felon, and carry a shame with me whenever I apply anywhere for anything or try to do anything.( I am no slouch btw that record doesn't hold me back from anything today but I had to pay handsomely for that. Both monetarily and psychologically).
So,from the moment I went down I had to learn how to survive in this country no longer being an upstanding member of society. For example by me checking into probation, every month I am crammed in an office with some of the worst people I have ever met in my life but me being the person I am and friendly like I am I talk to people, and made some connections I shouldn't have, and did somethings I shouldn't have and learned alot about being a criminal. But the most important thing I learned is that very few people set out to be criminals. Albeit you have the percentage that are for lack of a better term gangsters. That's what they do is crime, it runs in their family it's passed down, prison becomes a right of passage, and no doubt they need to ****ing be there. But the other handful of people are really good decent people, just dealt a **** hand and for whatever reason they chose to make a bad decision.
In my opinion police create criminals, and criminals create police. I was a victim of circumstance right, and it's the been the hardest thing I have ever done in my life crawling back from being what society deemed as a criminal, to not carry fear inside me (which totally never leaves you I still have my release papers in my glove box in my car because I'll be damned if I sit in jail on a clerical error and I was arrested 11 years ago.) If the police weren't doing a sting that day, and it was a patrol officer that busted me I might not have had that happen to me, and my life might be completely different. But because it was what it was and it was a task force of officers and fired up good ole boy ones at that, I was ****ed from the start and from that day on I am never really sure if the cop I encounter is looking at me or my jacket, you feel me?

That my friend has nothing to do with law makers, that has to do with the people we entrust to keep us safe, and keep order, being so regimented, hardened to the job, or whatever not making a human judgement call. And that's bull****. And that should be addressed, I dunno if that means giving you sensitivity training, and maybe giving even more power to law enforcement, I dunno. And I am not sure this is even a good response to what you wrote, I was just kinda thinking.
I've already told you what I thought of that, yes? Like every other profession, we have A LOT of f*cking douche bag idiots who make everyone else suffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1593896)
Nope. Pick a side, either enforce it or don't. It's not your job to police people based on their attitude towards you. If you don't believe it's right to ticket people for smoking weed then don't harass them, and if you do then do it to everyone.

Also, you're not serving your country. You're serving the political agendas of the government/big businesses, or town government/finances (quotas are bullshit). There are very few instances(relatively speaking) that I've ever seen of a cop/military man serving their community/country.

You do what your told by people who do not represent the average American.
Remember that the next time a cop gives you a warning as opposed to a speeding ticket. And you misread, I'd still bust you for the drugs, but I'd get you help if you wanted it.

And do not disregard Soldiers in such a way, ever again. Understood? You may not agree with what we do, or the policies that put us where we are, but remember the "Average American" such as YOU put us there. If you have ever voted for a politician YOU put us there. Not us. Soldiers generally do not vote nor do we have political opinions because we get sent to where the politicians tell us to go, doesn't matter if we like it or not, so we tend to keep our opinions to ourselves.

Guybrush 05-26-2015 08:02 AM
I'm with Fiddler on this. The job is to enforce the law and so that's what you do. If a constable gets to pick and choose what laws should be enforced, that hurts the integrity of the whole police force.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 08:08 AM
You told me in plug I can say whatever I want about you/soldiers because differing opinions are okay. I don't vote for anyone or anything. I didn't put you anywhere, and I'll go to prison before I ever go to war for the douchebags who control you.

You keeping your opinion to yourself is a problem. Organized killing machines with no thoughts of your own worth fighting for. Let the government do their own dirty work in the trenches if you don't agree with the cause. Sheep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1593898)
Soldiers generally do not vote nor do we have political opinions because we get sent to where the politicians tell us to go, doesn't matter if we like it or not, so we tend to keep our opinions to ourselves.
That's pretty much the epitome of why you suck.

fiddler 05-26-2015 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1593902)
You told me in plug I can say whatever I want about you/soldiers because differing opinions are okay. I don't vote for anyone or anything. I didn't put you anywhere, and I'll go to prison before I ever go to war for the douchebags who control you.

You keeping your opinion to yourself is a problem. Organized killing machines with no thoughts of your own worth fighting for. Let the government do their own dirty work in the trenches if you don't agree with the cause. Sheep.



That's pretty much the epitome of why you suck.
You CAN say whatever you want about me. It doesn't mean I have to agree with your opinion.

Not voting is just as bad as anything else, because you allow the system to function without putting a single effort forward to change it.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 08:15 AM
I'm not against voting. There is just no one/thing to vote for. If the country had a voted on going to war in Iraq I would have signed up to say No.

Oriphiel 05-26-2015 08:17 AM
I think you both have good points. On the one hand, it's hard to sympathize with soldiers and police officers when they enforce laws that we/they see as unjust. On the other hand, the current political system is so large and bogged down that it seems almost impossible for the average person to really be heard, and it takes an extraordinary amount of force and time to have those unjust laws questioned and repealed. Even when people vote, our system dominated by just two parties can come off as a "pick your poison" kind of situation.

RoxyRollah 05-26-2015 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1593898)
I've already told you what I thought of that, yes? Like every other profession, we have A LOT of f*cking douche bag idiots who make everyone else suffer.



Remember that the next time a cop gives you a warning as opposed to a speeding ticket. And you misread, I'd still bust you for the drugs, but I'd get you help if you wanted it.

And do not disregard Soldiers in such a way, ever again. Understood? You may not agree with what we do, or the policies that put us where we are, but remember the "Average American" such as YOU put us there. If you have ever voted for a politician YOU put us there. Not us. Soldiers generally do not vote nor do we have political opinions because we get sent to where the politicians tell us to go, doesn't matter if we like it or not, so we tend to keep our opinions to ourselves.




I think you missed my point in the middle.Hell I might have missed the point myself. But what I was saying is that I think sometimes, you all cause the problems you are trying to fix.

fiddler 05-26-2015 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1593905)
I'm not against voting. There is just no one/thing to vote for. If the country had a voted on going to war in Iraq I would have signed up to say No.
That's the system for you. Either you work with the system to fight the system, or you stay quiet and you do the system's work for it.

I noticed how you did not respond to the warning v. ticket comment that I made. You are saying that you don't get to pick and choose, which I agree with. But, by the letter of the law, if you are going 36 in a 35 you have broken the law and deserve a ticket. Which I assume you don't want THAT running around being enforced - granted there are some towns & such that DO enforce it that harshly. It's generally hated.

fiddler 05-26-2015 08:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoxyRollah (Post 1594040)
I think you missed my point in the middle.Hell I might have missed the point myself. But what I was saying is that I think sometimes, you all cause the problems you are trying to fix.
We do. I said that a lot of it comes with how you approach us, which is correct. If you're super fidgety and nervous we get nervous. What I probably should have said is if there's mutual respect between both parties involved, it removes a lot of the extra B.S.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1594041)
That's the system for you. Either you work with the system to fight the system, or you stay quiet and you do the system's work for it.

I noticed how you did not respond to the warning v. ticket comment that I made. You are saying that you don't get to pick and choose, which I agree with. But, by the letter of the law, if you are going 36 in a 35 you have broken the law and deserve a ticket. Which I assume you don't want THAT running around being enforced - granted there are some towns & such that DO enforce it that harshly. It's generally hated.
From my understanding warnings go on your record, so it's reasonable for a first time offender to get a warning before a ticket.

As for the whole speeding thing, if you don't agree that 1 mph over is a good enough reason to pull someone over then don't do it. Just be consistent.

I've never blamed a cop for enforcing the law, I got caught I own it. I get my chance to argue in court if it's worth the hassle. The only time I've ever given a cop an attitude was after my car got smashed by a drunk driver (while parked in front of my house) and the scumbag told me to lie to get more money out of the driver. I called him out for being a douche, and then dealt with a different officer for the rest of the night.

RoxyRollah 05-26-2015 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1594042)
We do. I said that a lot of it comes with how you approach us, which is correct. If you're super fidgety and nervous we get nervous. What I probably should have said is if there's mutual respect between both parties involved, it removes a lot of the extra B.S.
That and throwing people to the system, the system will make anyone a criminal.

fiddler 05-26-2015 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1594044)
From my understanding warnings go on your record, so it's reasonable for a first time offender to get a warning before a ticket.

As for the whole speeding thing, if you don't agree that 1 mph over is a good enough reason to pull someone over then don't do it. Just be consistent.

I've never blamed a cop for enforcing the law, I got caught I own it. I get my chance to argue in court if it's worth the hassle. The only time I've ever given a cop an attitude was after my car got smashed by a drunk driver (while parked in front of my house) and the scumbag told me to lie to get more money out of the driver. I called him out for being a douche, and then dealt with a different officer for the rest of the night.
Warnings depend on the state. In some they drop off after a set amount of time and it's like it never happened. We always have to enforce the law even if we don't agree with it. But it doesn't mean that e can't make a judgement call and perhaps not enforce it to the letter of the law. I think you simply misunderstood what I was saying. I'd still bust you for the drugs. I might not slams your face into the hood ofa car but you'd get busted. I'd try to help you too. That's
what I was saying the difference was b

I so would have reported that cop.

Plankton 05-26-2015 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1594041)
...by the letter of the law, if you are going 36 in a 35 you have broken the law and deserve a ticket. Which I assume you don't want THAT running around being enforced - granted there are some towns & such that DO enforce it that harshly. It's generally hated.
St. Charles, Illinois is notorious for that. It really boils down to the judicial level in most of those cases though.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1594046)
Warnings depend on the state. In some they drop off after a set amount of time and it's like it never happened. But that's what I'm saying, if we don't get to pick and choose what laws to enforce or not to, it means that we are enforcing the law to the letter. One mph means a ticket. Not a warning.

I so would have reported that cop.
Idk how it is where you are but in NJ a warning is an official piece of paper that they hand you. It's still part of the law, it's not picking and choosing, it's a lesser punishment for first time offenders.

Can't speak for all of NJ, but that's how my speeding warning worked.

fiddler 05-26-2015 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plankton (Post 1594047)
St. Charles, Illinois is notorious for that. It really boils down to the judicial level in most of those cases though.
Yeah there's a couple of towns like that around here, mostly ran by idiots. I love driving through them in uniform and in my cruiser because I go as fast as I want and they can't touch me. Ooops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1594048)
Idk how it is where you are but in NJ a warning is an official piece of paper that they hand you. It's still part of the law, it's not picking and choosing, it's a lesser punishment for first time offenders.

Can't speak for all of NJ, but that's how my speeding warning worked.
Great. So, let me hit you with this. I pull up behind you, and blue light you for your taillights being out. Pretty minor thing, not a big deal. I get up to your car window and you've got a crack pipe that's got some crack in your cup holder - in plain sight. If simply ignore it and go on about my business tell you to fix your taillights and that's it - I've ignored a law. I've chosen what law I wanted to enforce. However, if I enforce that law, there's actually two ways I can go about it: I can one bust you for possession of drug paraphernalia or I can bust you for that and the amount of crack in the pipe. After all, you're in possession of both. And according to the law, you're liable for both the pipe AND the crack inside of it. (I know, generally people don't ride around with crack actually in the pipe - I know the whole circumstance is purely stacked and coincidental). How is THAT choice any different from just choosing what laws to enforce all together? At that point I'm not simply interrupting the law, I'm ignoring a completely separate law. So is that really all that better than just ignoring the crack pipe all together?

Point is you say we shouldn't pick and choose what laws to enforce - which we shouldn't - but then if this happened to you and you only got charged for the one and not both, would you stand up and say something about it? Or would you be grateful for not getting busted for both?

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 09:26 AM
My stance is that you do your job, if someone is breaking multiple laws then charge them for it. I already said if you catch me I'll own it, but you gotta catch me because I purposefully break laws I don't agree with everyday (which are the ONLY laws I do break).

As for your second question. I wouldn't be grateful and I wouldn't say anything. I'm not gonna show you gratitude because you didn't prosecute to the full extent, you still prosecuted me for something I don't see anything wrong with.

Just do your job and don't abuse your authority. That's all I ask of cops, unfortunately none I've ever met seem to do that.

fiddler 05-26-2015 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1594057)
My stance is that you do your job, if someone is breaking multiple laws then charge them for it. I already said if you catch me I'll own it, but you gotta catch me because I purposefully break laws I don't agree with everyday (which are the ONLY laws I do break).

As for your second question. I wouldn't be grateful and I wouldn't say anything. I'm not gonna show you gratitude because you didn't prosecute to the full extent, you still prosecuted me for something I don't see anything wrong with.

Just do your job and don't abuse your authority. That's all I ask of cops, unfortunately none I've ever met seem to do that.
That's the point. If you break a law, you put yourself into a situation where you could potentially clash with the cops. Silently protesting a law by breaking it over and over again fuels the system. Keeps the nuts and bolts nice and tight.

So you feel that we shouldn't pick and choose which laws to enforce and which ones we do not enforce...but you're also not going to say anything when it benefits you. If you like it or not, a misdemeanor v. a felony is a hell of a trade off.

You haven't met the right cops.


Just as a side note of the ~20 tickets I've ever written 15 of them where in a ten month time span when the Army was real gung-ho on writing tickets. Stupidest B.S. I ever saw at the time and is still in the top 25 for S.B.S.

Plankton 05-26-2015 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1594055)
Yeah there's a couple of towns like that around here, mostly ran by idiots. I love driving through them in uniform and in my cruiser because I go as fast as I want and they can't touch me. Ooops.
Aww, now you gone done it. Duck and cover.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 09:43 AM
Why would I prosecute myself? That's not my job. That's your job, and like I already said, do your fucking job. If I get caught I'll own it, I understand the consequences of my actions and take part willingly.

fiddler 05-26-2015 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1594068)
Why would I prosecute myself? That's not my job. That's your job, and like I already said, do your fucking job. If I get caught I'll own it, I understand the consequences of my actions and take part willingly.
Oh, I do do my job. It was a hypothetical situation to prove that your sense of morals isn't as strong as it seems to be. Because if you expect us to enforce the laws equally without picking and choosing, so when it applies to you, it should be said that you would stick to your morals. After all, right is right and wrong is wrong. The problem with this argument is that it leaves no gray area, and in law there is a LOT of gray area. Roxy could tell you that, she'll be studying criminal law or so.

Your main point is for cops to be fair, consistent, and not to abuse the power, yes? Good, we agree.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 09:49 AM
This isn't an issue of morality. I am not a representative of the law, it is not my duty to uphold the law. It IS yours, that's what YOU signed up for. Not me.

I didn't take an oath to be a law abiding citizen. I didn't sign a paper saying I wouldn't break the law. I follow laws because I agree with them not because they are laws. I break laws because I disagree with them not because I want to get in trouble.

If we agree then next time we talk about the drunkin assholes you handle on base I hope you don't wait until morning to "deal with it" to avoid the hassle of paperwork.

Chula Vista 05-26-2015 10:24 AM
Sorry, but IMO you're being a bit of a dick DWV.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 10:30 AM
How so? I'm not attacking Fiddler. He asked me how I feel about a certain scenario. I thought we were having a pretty good back and fourth. Would your rather I lie about how I feel about a sensitive topic?

You don't have to apologize for your opinion but you could at least explain yourself.

Plankton 05-26-2015 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1594085)
How so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1593902)
That's pretty much the epitome of why you suck.
.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 10:39 AM
That was a generalization(as was the do your fucking job comment, I meant police in general not Fiddler, which I see I didn't make clear), not a direct attack on Fiddler. And the discussion has long since moved past that.

I did call him a sheep though, so you can ride me for that.

Chula Vista 05-26-2015 10:41 AM
We should all be expected to extend a certain amount of common courtesy to new members, especially if they come off as cool from the get go. Fiddler has been nothing but cool from day one.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 10:46 AM
Fiddler and I have already somewhat discussed this in plug. If you're not comfortable reading a conversation you have no context for understanding then remove yourself. If you are comfortable then contribute to it in a meaningful way, Fiddler is perfectly comfortable speaking his mind to me.

Edit: I already PM'd Jans to move this off topic discussion to a new thread in the debate forums. Just waiting for a response.

Chula Vista 05-26-2015 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1594094)
If you're not comfortable reading a conversation you have no pretense for understanding then remove yourself.
Again, being a dick.

YorkeDaddy 05-26-2015 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chula Vista (Post 1594095)
Again, being a dick.
He's right though, Fiddler doesn't seem offended or anything in any way so I'm not sure why the conversation requires your backseat policing

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 10:53 AM
Again, offering nothing to the actual discussion. Can you please say something? If you want to defend Fiddler why don't you say something to try and change my mind. I'm always open to hear differing opinions that I may not have considered.

fiddler 05-26-2015 11:00 AM
I'm not offended at all not even a little bit. If we cannot discuss adult issues as adults, what was the point of becoming an adult? I'm not one bit offended not do I feel even the slightest bit insulted about what's been said.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 11:01 AM
Thank you for verifying that Fiddler. :D

Chula Vista 05-26-2015 11:13 AM
I'm backing out. Sorry for the sidebar.

Josef K 05-26-2015 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddler (Post 1593898)
And do not disregard Soldiers in such a way, ever again. Understood? You may not agree with what we do, or the policies that put us where we are, but remember the "Average American" such as YOU put us there. If you have ever voted for a politician YOU put us there. Not us. Soldiers generally do not vote nor do we have political opinions because we get sent to where the politicians tell us to go, doesn't matter if we like it or not, so we tend to keep our opinions to ourselves.
Lolwut? It's not DWV's fault that after 9/11 you decided you wanted to go kill some Arabs. And even if you didn't know what you were getting into, even if you were idealistic and really thought you were doing good, don't act like it's somehow the public's fault that the government manipulated and straight up manufactured intelligence to justify a continuation of the same kind of imperialism that caused 9/11 in the first place.

fiddler 05-26-2015 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josef K (Post 1594114)
Lolwut? It's not DWV's fault that after 9/11 you decided you wanted to go kill some Arabs. And even if you didn't know what you were getting into, even if you were idealistic and really thought you were doing good, don't act like it's somehow the public's fault that the government manipulated and straight up manufactured intelligence to justify a continuation of the same kind of imperialism that caused 9/11 in the first place.
I'm not going to get into that because the public was blood thirsty and anyone who denies that isn't sure of his/her facts.

As far as policing goes, dw, morals are always involved when it comes to law. Based on what you've said, about choosing to break laws that you disagree with, the potential consequences do not worry you. So I ask this, does the law prevent you from murdering someone or does your sense of morals?

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 12:19 PM
I suppose morality. I've never felt the urge to murder someone. I can admit that if I had the urge then the consequences of life in prison might be a deterrent, but I doubt it. Can't say for sure because I've never been in that situation. I've never even had the urge to cause physical harm to another individual, I just don't see how that is useful for resolving a problem.

If I was ever so enraged that I actually wanted to take another person's life then I don't think anything would stop me besides physical incapability.

Edit: Also, I don't think the public was as one sided as you make it sound. I think a lot of that had to do with where you were living. There was a lot of mixed feelings in NJ and I could see the smoke from a couple towns over.

Chula Vista 05-26-2015 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1594120)
I've never even had the urge to cause physical harm to another individual,
It's kinda fun in a weird way.

DwnWthVwls 05-26-2015 12:25 PM
Yeh, I enjoyed it when I was in the ring and it was consensual, but that was for sport.

The Batlord 05-26-2015 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1594120)
Edit: Also, I don't think the public was as one sided as you make it sound. I think a lot of that had to do with where you were living. There was a lot of mixed feelings in NJ and I could see the smoke from a couple towns over.
I live in Virginia, and while we're not Alabama or Texas (http://www.atheistnetwork2.com/image...ace_smiley.png), there wasn't much thought other than getting those mother****ers, at least in the first year or so. And considering Bush had a 90% approval rating at the time, I think that's probably pretty representative of where the country was as a whole.

Honestly, the government may very well have lied about WMDs in order to get us into Iraq, but we really didn't need all that much convincing at that point. They just had to imply a terrorist connection and we were perfectly happy to not think too hard about it.


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