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Old 07-28-2015, 07:48 AM   #161 (permalink)
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I thought Japan's flag was the same they'd been using pre-war that represented so much more than just their actions during WW II, whereas the Nazi flag only flew during the Third Reich.
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:08 AM   #162 (permalink)
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technically the nazi flag was pre ww2 as well, as was the nazi regime. and it drew on nationalist symbolism from the previous long standing german empire that ended in ww1. the japanese flag was adopted by the same modern japanese regime that saw it as their imperial destiny to conquer asia, and was a symbol of japan's rising dominance in that region, as well as a throwback to older japanese nationalist and mythological sentiments.
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Old 07-28-2015, 10:29 AM   #163 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie View Post
They're just flags though, ain't they.
Meaning is not subjective.
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Old 07-28-2015, 10:41 AM   #164 (permalink)
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technically the nazi flag was pre ww2 as well, as was the nazi regime. and it drew on nationalist symbolism from the previous long standing german empire that ended in ww1. the japanese flag was adopted by the same modern japanese regime that saw it as their imperial destiny to conquer asia, and was a symbol of japan's rising dominance in that region, as well as a throwback to older japanese nationalist and mythological sentiments.
... And the use of the swastika on the flag predates any country's flag. If I remember my world history correctly, the Romans used the swastika, right? That was their whole gimmick: 'We're just as powerful as Rome, or at least, we will be soon.'
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Old 07-28-2015, 10:52 AM   #165 (permalink)
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Meaning is not subjective.
I would argue that meaning is quite subjective (as the history of the swastika demonstrates).

Rather, the argument should be that a large population of people with a common subjective meaning is not meek force in society. Ultimately, subjectivity should not be trivialized, since it underlies human motivation.
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:25 AM   #166 (permalink)
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I suspect Wpnfire was being sarcastic as meaning is entirely subjective.

With regards to flags serving as symbols, yes, that's true. But symbols ain't real. Two people see the same Swastika, one has knowledge of Nazism, one doesn't, to one it's a symbol, to the other it's only an image. Symbols cannot exist outside the mind. We choose, willingly or not, to give them power. If we empty our heads of pre-conceptions and associations, then an image is just an image, and we don't confuse harmless flags with heinous acts.
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:30 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie View Post
I suspect Wpnfire was being sarcastic as meaning is entirely subjective.

With regards to flags serving as symbols, yes, that's true. But symbols ain't real. Two people see the same Swastika, one has knowledge of Nazism, one doesn't, to one it's a symbol, to the other it's only an image. Symbols cannot exist outside the mind. We choose, willingly or not, to give them power. If we empty our heads of pre-conceptions and associations, then an image is just an image, and we don't confuse harmless flags with heinous acts.
I'll stick to my preconceptions about symbols like the ones you used to communicate your thoughts. Your concept is a little bit idealistic.
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:32 AM   #168 (permalink)
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No worries.
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:50 AM   #169 (permalink)
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I suspect Wpnfire was being sarcastic as meaning is entirely subjective.

With regards to flags serving as symbols, yes, that's true. But symbols ain't real. Two people see the same Swastika, one has knowledge of Nazism, one doesn't, to one it's a symbol, to the other it's only an image. Symbols cannot exist outside the mind. We choose, willingly or not, to give them power. If we empty our heads of pre-conceptions and associations, then an image is just an image, and we don't confuse harmless flags with heinous acts.
I don't know man. It just kind of feels like you're saying "look at me, I'm not affected by random shapes and colors". And while I'm sure it's true of Nazi nationalism that the flag doesn't offend you or cause you to go out on genocide, there still are symbols in your life that influence you based on what you grew up with and were exposed to and what your association cortex had to work with between visual signals and autobriographical memories.

But the main point is that regardless of how enlightened you may personally be, you must acknowledge that there's sufficient pockets of population that derive synergy from common ideals through the physical manifestations of symbolism. You may choose not to give them power, but they still give power to the people that unite under them. Of course, they're replaceable. If we take away one flag, they'll find another one or another symbol. So in that regard, it's a bit cat and mouse. However, what it does do when a nation enacts policies to reduce the public occurrence of a symbol, they're communicating that they don't like the thing that symbol stands for. And that's important, because people will feel more justified in behavior when authority figures condone of it. So the symbolism works both ways.

If you need evidence that's pretty thoroughly researched, look into branding. Branding is a commercial setting, so its a bit different because there's not much funding available to study nationalism and hate groups, compared to studying what makes people buy your product more (because of the disparity in monetary incentive).
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Old 07-28-2015, 12:00 PM   #170 (permalink)
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Let's get one thing straight, I'm not enlightened, far from it . I have hang ups like everyone else, harmless stuff that offends me. Jokes about animal cruelty, for example, they're just jokes, and jokes don't harm animals, but they make me uncomfortable. But, at the same time, I don't tell people they shouldn't joke about animal cruelty, I recognise that it's my problem, it's my mind, my reaction to the jokes, my mental associations (because I work with abused and homeless animals) that's the real issue.
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