Lisnaholic

My understanding, FETCHER, is that this is the only deal that all 27 member countries are likely to agree on: it only takes one EU country to veto a deal, so it's a real achievement to have finally found a deal that all the countries are willing to accept. It's this deal or no deal and if the UK reject it, they will have to crash out of the EU with nothing except the lasting ill will of Europe and the contempt of the rest of the world.

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"Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

MicShazam

I don't feel like like the EU would be totally uncooperative long term no matter the Brexit outcome. The Brits would still be considered important allies. I might be wrong, ofc

Cuthbert

No it's this deal or no deal.

The vote is on the 11th of December.

Even Tories are going against her.

I can see some sort of people's vote happening, there was talk of Labour, Greens, SNP, Lib Dem and Tory remainers backing it.

Now that we have the deal there is no reason not to see if people still want to go ahead with this. If you are part of a team on a building site and you price up a job, agree on it then later on you realise its going to cost a lot more than you thought, and there are difficulties with the job, you'd check if everyone in the team still wants to go ahead with it. You don't just push on because BREXIT MEANS BREXIT and WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

Lisnaholic

^ Yes, a referendum would be good, Fluff - firstly to know what the public want, and secondly to nip in the bud all the recriminations that are bound to start up the minute Britain is commited, either to May's deal or the crash-out Brexit.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's time or the inclination from politicians for another referendum. Instead, there is this survey published today indicating what the (slim) majority of people want:-

https://www.survation.com/are-the-pu...deal-than-mps/

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^ Thanks, MicShazam! That's reassuring, and it's true - whatever happens we will still be NATO buddies with Europe, co-signers of the Paris Agreement and I don't know what else.

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"Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

FETCHER.

Ah right, I understand it a lot better now thanks! So if for example the UK does crash out with no deal, would that mean the UK won’t trade with the EU due to a broken relationship? Would we still take our share of the unions debt? I don’t understand the “no deal” side of things if we reject this offer.

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My Journal.
Last.Fm if your interested...

Lisnaholic

I'm very pleased if MB has helped you at all FETCHER - you are living through a historic moment that will change Britain for decades to come. Your grandchildren will be interviewing you about this for their school history project, so you'll want some answers ready when that day comes.

I don't know the details of May's deal, but I think she's trying for the softest of soft Brexits. That means some restraints on the UK's independence, but it also means keeping some of the financial/trade/citizenship arrangements with the EU in place. Those help trade and commerce between us and the EU, and if we crash out without a deal, we are saying, "Those arrangements don't apply to us any more." If that happens, there'll be an increase in bureaucracy to check people/products/cash as they move from UK to Europe, and trade will get slower and more complicated. Trade will still go on, because countries trade with each other all the time without trade deals. That's one of the main arguments of the Hard Brexiteers: that we don't need any special arrangements with the EU. TBH, I don't think the UK would thrive in that cold, ruthless environment of competitive world trade- but as it's about the future, no one can say for sure.


And if I find a firm answer about UK/EU debt commitments I'll let you know, but the other day I heard May promising that her deal will channel billions of pounds ( that we are currently paying to the EU ) into the NHS. Should we believe her? Well, please let us know if a shiny new hospital is built in your neighbourhood any time soon, ok FETCHER ?

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"Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

Cuthbert

Going well isn't it

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Lisnaholic

^

Unbelievable to me that there is so little support for May's compromise. I can't work out any longer what people want: the options are crash-out Brexit, hard-Brexit, soft-Brexit or (not actually on the table right now) new referendum in hopes of Remaining. Are people really going for crash-out?

Nigel Farage has quit UKIP?! Hasn't he done that already? He's quit so many things that I've lost track: he even quit when he won the original Brexit referendum

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"Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

The Batlord

What a dumb country. No wonder we ended up where we did.

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Cuthbert

Saw a bit on the news earlier that some top guy, can't remember who but he's in the EU legal something or other said that if we decided we wanted to call Brexit off, we could do so and rejoin the EU without the backing of all the current member states but there would be conditions attached, like it would have to be in good faith and not just a tactic to buy more time, and would need parliamentary backing.

This is what I have thought would happen in the back of my mind. May will be forced out, the government will be in chaos and we'll have a general election followed by either a vote on the deal or a second referendum (in which we would vote to remain). The whole thing is a mess and an embarrassment. Still don't know why we're doing it tbh.

Looking forward to seeing what happens on the 11th