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Old 03-14-2017, 11:23 AM   #381 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Goofle View Post
A counter argument to genital mutilation is don't needlessly cut off a part of your child.
There you go. You did it. Some might debate you on 'needlessly', but I won't. It's a strange tradition. I'm not sure if it rises to the level of harm, but too each their own. Literally the only thing I wanted out of this "argument" is to bring the language back to where it belongs with this issue.

It's cutting off a part of a newborn. Not hacking. Not carving. Not mutilating.

Frownland, you need to show injury (I was circumcised and it works just fine), disfigurement (looks fine too), or imperfection (arguable, but we also have vestigial organs, the foreskin made a lot more sense when we wandered the savanna, naked), for your application of "mutilate" to fit. How about just circumcision? It's the clinical term for a specific medical procedure. If you want to describe it, how about 'slicing off the foreskin'? I don't get why it's so important to apply the term 'mutilate' to something it doesn't apply to. MRA types, of which I don't think you are one, use culture's general blase attitude toward circumcision as proof of anti-men biases in society. The word mutilation is then introduced to make a direct comparison to FGM, which we both agree is a far more violent, painful, and medically unnecessary, and actually harmful, procedure. I bring this back up, because I think it explains why specificity when talking about issues around gender, race, sex, etc. are important. Hysterical misappropriation of strong, visceral language helps no one.

I can't believe I've made like 7 posts about circumcision... *trundles off toward the music section*
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:47 AM   #382 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks View Post
Frownland, you need to show injury (I was circumcised and it works just fine),
While it heals over time it is indeed an injury. Neat display of anecdotal evidence though.

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disfigurement (looks fine too)
It changes the appearance, which is disfigurement if you're not into the whole dick scar look.

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or imperfection (arguable, but we also have vestigial organs, the foreskin made a lot more sense when we wandered the savanna, naked)
Depends on what you consider perfect. Cutting off a bodypart does not sound perfect to me.

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How about just circumcision? It's the clinical term for a specific medical procedure.
Sure, I already do that. I think both terms are fine.

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The word mutilation is then introduced to make a direct comparison to FGM
Again, this is on you.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:54 AM   #383 (permalink)
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You are correct, it is anecdotal evidence. I'll concede that 'injury' could fit if the definition was stretched a bit. But as a point of comparison, something like a battlefield injury that could be described as 'mutilation' would not be expected to heal to the point where full functionality is maintained. The definition you cite does include 'removing or irreparably damaging parts'. A much more common use of the word would be attached to injuries from landmines, or woodchippers, or chainsaw-wielding Texans.

Regardless, referring to both circumcision and FGM as genital mutilation implies an equivalency with the substantive difference being which gender the practice is performed upon. I think you're being willfully blind to the propaganda value this false equivalency creates. But since you're returning to 'what the word mutilation means to me' I can't argue against a personal belief. Consider the point dropped, on my end at least.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:06 PM   #384 (permalink)
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You are correct, it is anecdotal evidence. I'll concede that 'injury' could fit if the definition was stretched a bit. But as a point of comparison, something like a battlefield injury that could be described as 'mutilation' would not be expected to heal to the point where full functionality is maintained. The definition you cite does include 'removing or irreparably damaging parts'. A much more common use of the word would be attached to injuries from landmines, or woodchippers, or chainsaw-wielding Texans.

Regardless, referring to both circumcision and FGM as genital mutilation implies an equivalency with the substantive difference being which gender the practice is performed upon. I think you're being willfully blind to the propaganda value this false equivalency creates. But since you're returning to 'what the word mutilation means to me' I can't argue against a personal belief. Consider the point dropped, on my end at least.
They're clearly not equivalent in more than one way. For one, FGM is not even practiced in my culture and looks to be 100% vilified by everyone, while male circumcision is incredibly rampant in my society and seems to be accepted as absolutely fine by 75% or more of people (estimate). Does FGM still suck chrome donkey balls? See my 100% number. That doesn't mean that anything less than FGM is no longer an issue.

Like anything else, it being used as a talking point by a side that you don't like (nor I for that matter) does not mean that the idea is inherently wrong. I don't think I'm implying an equivalency here, I think you're just inferring too much. It's easy to get swept up in the bigger picture, these conversations get abstract fast. I end up doing it all the time.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:15 PM   #385 (permalink)
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FGM is practised here. Saw this the other day.

West Midlands Police under fire over FGM tweets « Express & Star
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:47 PM   #386 (permalink)
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Frownland, stop arguing for the human rights of men before you get put in the same box as Alt-Right Nazi's.
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:42 PM   #387 (permalink)
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I don't disagree with any of that. I have not watched one and have no interest in doing so. Medical procedures gross me out. Not much stomach for poking and prodding around the human body.
it is quite disturbing. the kid just sits there screaming in agony while they cut his dick up. they don't put him under or anything... too risky at that age

i was never even "against" circumcision as such, since i was circumcised as a baby and don't remember it at all. but arguing about it once someone posted that video and now i don't know if i could let them do that to my son, if i ever were to have one

but that's sorta why i would put the devils advocate argument that male circumcision is a more relevant topic with regard to moral concerns/human rights in a western context. since there is a decent chance that many of us here might have our sons circumcised, not even thinking about it. where as there is a relatively minimal chance than any of us would even be in the position to opt to have our daughter's clit hacked off with a somalian machete.
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Old 03-14-2017, 02:04 PM   #388 (permalink)
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FGM is practised here. Saw this the other day.
let it be known that when i say "the west" i am referring specifically to the united states

as canada, australia, britain and europe have all - inadvertently through their multiculturalist neurosis - opted to become extensions of the caliphate
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:45 AM   #389 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frownland View Post
They're clearly not equivalent in more than one way. For one, FGM is not even practiced in my culture and looks to be 100% vilified by everyone, while male circumcision is incredibly rampant in my society and seems to be accepted as absolutely fine by 75% or more of people (estimate). Does FGM still suck chrome donkey balls? See my 100% number. That doesn't mean that anything less than FGM is no longer an issue.

Like anything else, it being used as a talking point by a side that you don't like (nor I for that matter) does not mean that the idea is inherently wrong. I don't think I'm implying an equivalency here, I think you're just inferring too much. It's easy to get swept up in the bigger picture, these conversations get abstract fast. I end up doing it all the time.
I can agree with this. I'm still not a fan of applying visceral language to issues that don't warrant it - it's part of broader trend of hyperbole in public discourse, but I think we're more or less aligned on this issue. You enjoy playing the contrarian and I appreciate that. Keeps me honest

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Originally Posted by Goofle
Frownland, stop arguing for the human rights of men before you get put in the same box as Alt-Right Nazi's.
I would like to have a real conversation with you, but you keep setting up these strawmen. I have never said that thinking circumcision is barbaric equates to being an 'alt-right Nazi'. I have said that the language used by MRA groups is purposeful and allows them to make an equivalency with FGM. This then gives them a leg, albeit a wobbly one, to stand on when they claim that feminism/women's issues get more play than men's - after all, both sexes are butchered. To my mind, this is pure sophistry for the reasons I've explained previously.

It's fine that we disagree. I welcome disagreement. Had a great back and forth with Frownland. He doesn't invent positions that I've "taken". He responds to what I actually say/type.
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:39 AM   #390 (permalink)
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Ouch, next time I should think through what points I try and make.
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"SMOKE CRACK MUDA****KKA"

I'll check that dictionary, but in the meantime I'm impressed - as is everyone else in the world - by your eloquence, obvious accomplishments and success, and the evidence of your blazingly high intelligence.
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He just doesn't have a mind so closed that it rivals Blockbuster.
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