What Did President Trump Do Now?

duga · 02-01-2017, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

1. I agree the west should have just left the Middle East alone as opposed to meddling circa WW2 and beyond. We are part of the problem too, but the fundamentalist ideology existed in Saudi Arabia and beyond for centuries before now. We woke a sleeping dragon, so to speak.

2. You must have missed it when I said "Yeah you have some minority nutjob denominations, but they generally keep to themselves and have no control over society, culture, etc." It isn't impossible for Christianity to become violently galvanized at the scale we're discussing in the Middle East, but now we're in "what if" territory which is a waste of time.

3. Everything we're talking about predates Donald Trump. Clinton and Bush fit the bill just as well (among others we've had in the past).

4. They don't like Western meddling for sure, but they're committing acts of terrorism in countries that have nothing to do with "Western" culture as well. Pulling out completely would be an interesting option, but you are naive if you believe that's the only motivation they have. Violence is a fundamental face to their belief system just as certain aspects of the Old Testament prevail in various Christian ideologies (and don't get me started on Calvinism lol). Difference is, fundamentalist Christians aren't strapping bomb vests on children and sending them out into the streets. If you really believe the violence isn't cultural or ingrained to some degree then you are deluding yourself. It is completely inexcusable.

1. My point was this fundamentalist ideology exists in EVERY RELIGION. This gets to my belief that religion in general needs to fade away, but that's another discussion. There's a sleeping dragon waiting behind every person with a belief system that does not require proof but does require absolute devotion.

2. It's not a matter of "what if?", it's a matter of "what would it take?". Religious texts are vague, translated a million times over, and couched in metaphor. Anything like that can be interpreted to fit your world view. Replace Muslims with Christians and I guarantee you we would be saying Christianity is a religion of violence. ANY belief system coupled with poverty and poor education can be taken advantage of.

3. I never said I agreed with all of this up until Donald Trump. It's just that up until this point, our world leaders recognized the tenuous situation and threw in a splash of diplomacy to keep things from boiling over. This ban now signals to that side of the world that yes - we are at war with Islam, not just extremism. This will galvanize them further.

4. Planned Parenthood. Plenty of domestic terrorism going on there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

You guys have all completely missed the point. Why am I not surprised that liberals can't tell the difference between discussing PEOPLE and discussing IDEOLOGY. Question: Islam originated in "which" part of the world? That's what I thought. I agreed the world was full of peaceful awesome Muslims. I'm talking about a specific part of the world and ground zero for the purest form of cultural and religious ideology for the Islamic faith.

Oh wait, I'm a bigot for talking about problems in Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Whoops! I also made a comparison point to the peaceful majority's practicing of Islam to the non-denominational Christians. That's the path of co-existence. But what can I expect from people with zero reading comprehension? Good grief.

When you state that Islamic ideology is inherently violent, you apply that to every person that follows that religion. With claims like this, you can't separate the people from the ideology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Correct. Islam itself isn't the enemy, it's Wahhabism and related ideologies / interpretations of Islam.

One of the root issues is that you have a surprising amount of thought leaders in Islam itself who adhere to elements of Wahhabism, which is evidence that Islam as a whole is still going through the teething stage I discussed before. Since this ideology persists strongly in Islam's geological place of origin, I believe it contributes greatly to the violence we observe today.

It has nothing to do with its origin. Again, replace Islam with Christianity and you get the same reaction, regardless of where you are in the world. The people there couldn't trust their government (since we've installed despot after despot in order to control the region) or the outside world (since everyone seems to want their oil). Who would you turn to? The only person who seems to be on your side and claims to have all the solutions. In this case, their religious leaders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

And I love it when wonderful fellows like Frownland point out what I've already said in regards to the evolution of Christianity.

I already explained the big picture: Islam will never get to the point where Christianity is at as long as Wahhabism and related ideologies / interpretations of Islam continue to dominate the global conversation. I doubt you'd have so much fear of Islam worldwide if you could just take that one "part" of the diversity out of the equation. Take one or two bad apples out of the barrel and the whole stigma disappears.

(I'm agnostic by the way...not that anyone cares)

It is ALREADY AT THAT POINT. This extremist attitude is a REGRESSION, and one that ANY belief system risks falling into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Yep. Scary how much influence they have despite being the global minority right?

What influence? Seems to me to western world does what they want regardless of how much yelling the extremists do. Seeing it on the news all the time is not the same thing as having lots of influence.

riseagainstrocks · 02-01-2017, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

ANY belief system coupled with poverty and poor education can be taken advantage of.

The people there couldn't trust their government (since we've installed despot after despot in order to control the region) or the outside world (since everyone seems to want their oil). Who would you turn to? The only person who seems to be on your side and claims to have all the solutions. In this case, their religious leaders.

This right here is why terrorism exists, especially why it exists in 2017 in the Middle East and Eastern Africa. Poor countries, lack of government power to enforce contracts/too much government power abuse, and lack of exposure to outside ideas or culture. Islam, in isolation, isn't the driving force behind terrorism. If it was, we'd have so many more attacks in so many places. Islam is twisted, parsed, and manipulated by people with aspirations of power in this life and impressed on the young, the gullible, and the desperate. Point out a verse in the Quran calling for the deaths of unbelievers and I'll show you one in the Bible proscribing death for wearing poly-blend fabric.

Whether it's nationalism, racial hegemony, religious invocation, etc. all of these tribal mindsets, which as recently evolved creatures we're susceptible to, can trace their roots to the inculcation of the weak and the stupid (stupid as in 'not knowing', not a statement of intellectual capacity).

I recently finished a book by Brian Fishman (a counterterrorism fellow at International Security Program and former Combating Terrorism Center director at West Point) titled The Master Plan: ISIS, al-Qaeda, and the Jihadi Strategy for Final Victory. It was a fascinating read for many reasons but the last 3-4 pages or so should be passed around Capitol Hill. Think we have fake news in the States? Imagine what passes as news in authoritarian or semi-lawless areas of the world. Trump's complete lack of nuance fuels a wrongly held belief (although these days it's tipping into half) that America hates Islam. We don't give a damn about Islam. Much like we don't care about what any one person believes. Free expression - it's a glorious thing. But when Trump is quoted as saying "ban all Muslims" no matter the context he thinks it was in, it is blasted to all the poor, dispossessed, aimless, and hopeless youths in countries ravaged by Western meddling and local power squabbles and makes a compelling case for sticking it to the great Satan.

The language Trump uses is so un-nuanced (and this is me generously assuming that he truly has no problem with Muslims) that a casual Muslim observer in say, Indonesia, now thinks that it is American policy to exclude and possible persecute Muslims. Thus, this person is more susceptible to whispers of 'crusader invasions' and 'desecration of the holy land'. This travel ban was broad, preemptive, unreviewed, and as we've seen, unpopular. Trump claims he has a mandate for this action. Depends on which poll you read and how the question was posed. What this does show is that Americans have a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what Islam is and what it teaches. Look at Catholicism in the 1500's. Look at Protestantism in in 1650-1750 in New England. And if you're thinking "well duh, but Christians grew up" I'd ask you to look at Mecca, Medina, Baghdad, Istanbul at those same times - centers of civilization, learning, culture.

Long post and sorry if it's a bit ranty. I'm pretty convinced that most Americans know about Islam solely through bin Laden's propaganda videos and the bad guys in True Lies. But hey, they're brown and write in squiggles, so why should we try to understand their 1300 year old culture.

Chula Vista · 02-01-2017, 01:00 PM

^^^^^

Outstanding post. Watch Bourdain's episode where he visits Saudi Arabia to get a real perspective.

Psy-Fi · 02-01-2017, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

^^^^^

Outstanding post. Watch Bourdain's episode where he visits Saudi Arabia to get a real perspective.

Looked like a bit of confusion from his Saudi host when he said "I'm blown away."

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

This right here is why terrorism exists, especially why it exists in 2017 in the Middle East and Eastern Africa. Poor countries, lack of government power to enforce contracts/too much government power abuse, and lack of exposure to outside ideas or culture. Islam, in isolation, isn't the driving force behind terrorism. If it was, we'd have so many more attacks in so many places. Islam is twisted, parsed, and manipulated by people with aspirations of power in this life and impressed on the young, the gullible, and the desperate. Point out a verse in the Quran calling for the deaths of unbelievers and I'll show you one in the Bible proscribing death for wearing poly-blend fabric.

Whether it's nationalism, racial hegemony, religious invocation, etc. all of these tribal mindsets, which as recently evolved creatures we're susceptible to, can trace their roots to the inculcation of the weak and the stupid (stupid as in 'not knowing', not a statement of intellectual capacity).

I recently finished a book by Brian Fishman (a counterterrorism fellow at International Security Program and former Combating Terrorism Center director at West Point) titled The Master Plan: ISIS, al-Qaeda, and the Jihadi Strategy for Final Victory. It was a fascinating read for many reasons but the last 3-4 pages or so should be passed around Capitol Hill. Think we have fake news in the States? Imagine what passes as news in authoritarian or semi-lawless areas of the world. Trump's complete lack of nuance fuels a wrongly held belief (although these days it's tipping into half) that America hates Islam. We don't give a damn about Islam. Much like we don't care about what any one person believes. Free expression - it's a glorious thing. But when Trump is quoted as saying "ban all Muslims" no matter the context he thinks it was in, it is blasted to all the poor, dispossessed, aimless, and hopeless youths in countries ravaged by Western meddling and local power squabbles and makes a compelling case for sticking it to the great Satan.

The language Trump uses is so un-nuanced (and this is me generously assuming that he truly has no problem with Muslims) that a casual Muslim observer in say, Indonesia, now thinks that it is American policy to exclude and possible persecute Muslims. Thus, this person is more susceptible to whispers of 'crusader invasions' and 'desecration of the holy land'. This travel ban was broad, preemptive, unreviewed, and as we've seen, unpopular. Trump claims he has a mandate for this action. Depends on which poll you read and how the question was posed. What this does show is that Americans have a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what Islam is and what it teaches. Look at Catholicism in the 1500's. Look at Protestantism in in 1650-1750 in New England. And if you're thinking "well duh, but Christians grew up" I'd ask you to look at Mecca, Medina, Baghdad, Istanbul at those same times - centers of civilization, learning, culture.

Long post and sorry if it's a bit ranty. I'm pretty convinced that most Americans know about Islam solely through bin Laden's propaganda videos and the bad guys in True Lies. But hey, they're brown and write in squiggles, so why should we try to understand their 1300 year old culture.

Beautiful post. One of the best I've seen on this thread so far.

One minor point: Christianity, rationally speaking, doesn't relate much back to anything in the Old Testament since it predates Jesus's birth. The Qur'an is a different story: Mohammad and his life is the ultimate ideal, not Jesus's. That's where you start seeing fundamental differences in ideology.

riseagainstrocks · 02-02-2017, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

One minor point: Christianity, rationally speaking, doesn't relate much back to anything in the Old Testament since it predates Jesus's birth. The Qur'an is a different story: Mohammad and his life is the ultimate ideal, not Jesus's. That's where you start seeing fundamental differences in ideology.

Matthew 5:17 [Jesus speaking]

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

This is an old argument and unfortunately is not one I think holds much water. But it's actually illustrative of the larger point, that the overwhelming majority of religious people are not slavishly devoted to every word in their holy book. Part of the reason I'm not religious is the cognitive dissonance displayed there. It's either written/directly revealed by God or it's not.

Regardless, the majority of the alt-right's claims regarding Islam are provably false. And the ones that aren't (invocations to kill nonbelievers, the superiority of Islam over other faiths, Islamic eschatology) are found in Christianity. Since most alt-right proponents were raised as Christians or at least have been exposed to the faith and it's adherents their whole life, they intuitively understand that following a religion doesn't mean you follow all of that religion.

Some strong analogies in this thread. elphenor's 'faith as clothing' idea is quite accurate for, what I would very unscientifically estimate, 90% of 'believers'. And yes, TheBatlord, a pair of tennis shoes never motivated a suicide bomber. But as myself and others stated earlier, religious violence is most commonly used by people manipulated by those with aspirations for earthly power. Faith is a powerful motivator, but it's hard to directly tie it to violence. As you said, the WBC doesn't engage in mass murder, despite holding the same level of contempt and hatred for the majority of Americans (homosexuals and homosexual allies). Jihadists and WBC/Identitarians/Sovereign Citizens share the similar mindsets; ones easier to turn against their fellow humans. But, with few exceptions, the critical conditions for terrorist action aren't common in the West.

To reiterate, poverty, lack of cultural diffusion, lack of empowerment, and lack of opportunity create the ground for terrorists. It takes emotional manipulation to make a 17 year old shepherd strap a bomb to his chest and kill dozens of his neighbors. Religion is arguably the most powerful emotional impetus; a fact well known by the sadistic nihilists that lead ISIS, al Qaeda, etc.

duga · 02-02-2017, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

To reiterate, poverty, lack of cultural diffusion, lack of empowerment, and lack of opportunity create the ground for terrorists. It takes emotional manipulation to make a 17 year old shepherd strap a bomb to his chest and kill dozens of his neighbors. Religion is arguably the most powerful emotional impetus; a fact well known by the sadistic nihilists that lead ISIS, al Qaeda, etc.

Exactly. People arguing against this seem to think I'm implying Islam has nothing to do with the violence. What I am saying is the fact that Islam is being used as the fuel is secondary to the fact that it is their government and circumstances that are driving the whole thing.

We can have a theological debate all day, but targeting the religion will not fix anything. Emphasizing the religion will only reinforce the negative stereotypes the ignorant and uneducated among us feel towards ALL Muslims. We want people to rally around the right cause, which is to fight the oppressive government currently enforcing this theocracy on their people.

DwnWthVwls · 02-01-2017, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

1. My point was this fundamentalist ideology exists in EVERY RELIGION. This gets to my belief that religion in general needs to fade away, but that's another discussion. There's a sleeping dragon waiting behind every person with a belief system that does not require proof but does require absolute devotion.

Amen. A bit of an extreme take on religious people, but overall I agree with you.

duga · 02-01-2017, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

This right here is why terrorism exists, especially why it exists in 2017 in the Middle East and Eastern Africa. Poor countries, lack of government power to enforce contracts/too much government power abuse, and lack of exposure to outside ideas or culture. Islam, in isolation, isn't the driving force behind terrorism. If it was, we'd have so many more attacks in so many places. Islam is twisted, parsed, and manipulated by people with aspirations of power in this life and impressed on the young, the gullible, and the desperate. Point out a verse in the Quran calling for the deaths of unbelievers and I'll show you one in the Bible proscribing death for wearing poly-blend fabric.

Whether it's nationalism, racial hegemony, religious invocation, etc. all of these tribal mindsets, which as recently evolved creatures we're susceptible to, can trace their roots to the inculcation of the weak and the stupid (stupid as in 'not knowing', not a statement of intellectual capacity).

I recently finished a book by Brian Fishman (a counterterrorism fellow at International Security Program and former Combating Terrorism Center director at West Point) titled The Master Plan: ISIS, al-Qaeda, and the Jihadi Strategy for Final Victory. It was a fascinating read for many reasons but the last 3-4 pages or so should be passed around Capitol Hill. Think we have fake news in the States? Imagine what passes as news in authoritarian or semi-lawless areas of the world. Trump's complete lack of nuance fuels a wrongly held belief (although these days it's tipping into half) that America hates Islam. We don't give a damn about Islam. Much like we don't care about what any one person believes. Free expression - it's a glorious thing. But when Trump is quoted as saying "ban all Muslims" no matter the context he thinks it was in, it is blasted to all the poor, dispossessed, aimless, and hopeless youths in countries ravaged by Western meddling and local power squabbles and makes a compelling case for sticking it to the great Satan.

The language Trump uses is so un-nuanced (and this is me generously assuming that he truly has no problem with Muslims) that a casual Muslim observer in say, Indonesia, now thinks that it is American policy to exclude and possible persecute Muslims. Thus, this person is more susceptible to whispers of 'crusader invasions' and 'desecration of the holy land'. This travel ban was broad, preemptive, unreviewed, and as we've seen, unpopular. Trump claims he has a mandate for this action. Depends on which poll you read and how the question was posed. What this does show is that Americans have a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what Islam is and what it teaches. Look at Catholicism in the 1500's. Look at Protestantism in in 1650-1750 in New England. And if you're thinking "well duh, but Christians grew up" I'd ask you to look at Mecca, Medina, Baghdad, Istanbul at those same times - centers of civilization, learning, culture.

Long post and sorry if it's a bit ranty. I'm pretty convinced that most Americans know about Islam solely through bin Laden's propaganda videos and the bad guys in True Lies. But hey, they're brown and write in squiggles, so why should we try to understand their 1300 year old culture.

Well said. I've also tried to throw Trump some benefit of the doubt and assume he doesn't actually hate Muslims - but there is a reason we leave diplomacy to the diplomats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Amen. A bit of an extreme take on religious people, but overall I agree with you.

Of course. I was just using his language to make a point. I doubt there's a sleeping dragon behind my poor old grandma.

02-01-2017, 01:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	^^^^^ Outstanding post. Watch Bourdain's episode where he visits Saudi Arabia to get a real perspective. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”