Science!

DwnWthVwls · 04-12-2019, 12:26 PM

Do you believe free will is possible at all? Not for humans, just in the general sense. Can an all knowing all powerful entity experience free will?

Lucem Ferre · 04-12-2019, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I never said that. I said that the option to do both exists because they are physically possible to perform.

Not being able to change the past is obvious evidence that you don't decide the future, duh Frownland.

Lucem Ferre · 04-12-2019, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Do you believe free will is possible at all? Not for humans, just in the general sense. Can an all knowing all powerful entity experience free will?

By their definition it has to be something that acts out of pure randomness that has no cause and effect relationship to it's choices. Something where literally nothing it does matters. (not in a philosophical way) In fact, perhaps it couldn't even be conscious of what it's doing.

DwnWthVwls · 04-12-2019, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

I scoff at people who claim destiny as if it were a conscious entity or magical force guiding their lives like God or astrology. And "I don't know" isn't a reasonable stance to stop at because it ignores the reality that believing one and not the other influences how society views itself and their actions resulting from that, and being agnostic is tantamount to believing in free will because you're just going to accept the status quo which is belief in free will. All the circle jerk rationalist garbage in the world isn't going to make you woke.

This is all poopoo that reminds me of the matrix argument. It doesnt matter if we actually have free will. We experience the world as if we do and govern our existence based on the general human experience. Even if everyone became woke it wouldnt change anything because according to you we are literally incapable of making a choice to change our behavior. Thats quite the paradox youve created in your little woke bubble.

The Batlord · 04-12-2019, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I never said that. I said that the option to do both exists because they are physically possible to perform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Do you believe free will is possible at all? Not for humans, just in the general sense. Can an all knowing all powerful entity experience free will?

Saying that you can't know that free will exists is pointless. On a purely logical level of course you can't know anymore than you can know that god exists or that we're not living in the Matrix. You can hold an agnostic view in an academic sense but you're still going to believe one or the other because that's simply how minds work. You can't hold a purely agnostic view. Either you believe in free will or you don't.

Saying that you can't know that free will exists or doesn't exist is like prefacing your opinion that X musical artist with "In my opinion". It doesn't add anything to the discussion. It just wastes time. You can believe that musical taste is subjective but you're still going to believe that an artist is either good or bad.

The Batlord · 04-12-2019, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

This is all poopoo that reminds me of the matrix argument. It doesnt matter if we actually have free will. We experience the world as if we do and govern our existence based on the general human experience. Even if everyone became woke it wouldnt change anything because according to you we are literally incapable of making a choice to change our behavior. Thats quite the paradox youve created in your little woke bubble.

It's not a paradox. If everyone stopped believing in free will that would influence how we view and run society. It wouldn't be a choice, it would simply be emergent, but it would quite possibly result in a society that runs on a more accurate view of how the world works.

DwnWthVwls · 04-12-2019, 12:41 PM

I believe i dont know if free will does or doesnt exist and dont care one way or the other. Prove me wrong. Ive never even thought about it until this discussion came up.

**Frownland** · 04-12-2019, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

Saying that you can't know that free will exists is pointless. On a purely logical level of course you can't know anymore than you can know that god exists or that we're not living in the Matrix. You can hold an agnostic view in an academic sense but you're still going to believe one or the other because that's simply how minds work. You can't hold a purely agnostic view. Either you believe in free will or you don't.

The majority of the arguments for the existence of god can easily be countered in a falsifiable manner. I don't see any of that scientific rigor behind your position.

I also don't agree with the assertion that free will can only exist if it's absolute. I also vehemently disagree with the assertion that free will can only exist if decision-making is entirely random because that would be a form of determinism in itself. I've explained this to you several times, so if you don't get it you're clearly just not there yet.

Quote:

Saying that you can't know that free will exists or doesn't exist is like prefacing your opinion that X musical artist with "In my opinion". It doesn't add anything to the discussion. It just wastes time. You can believe that musical taste is subjective but you're still going to believe that an artist is either good or bad.

The fact that you have to rely so heavily on false analogies, false equivalencies, strawmanning, and goalpost moving to support your position should tell you that your position isn't as concrete as you're presenting it to be.

Lucem Ferre · 04-12-2019, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

It's not a paradox. If everyone stopped believing in free will that would influence how we view and run society. It wouldn't be a choice, it would simply be emergent, but it would quite possibly result in a society that runs on a more accurate view of how the world works.

No, it's a paradox. The whole concept is riddled with paradoxes from both sides.

There's a huge difference between 'I believe' and 'I know' which is what is being argued against. OH said that he knows free will doesn't exist because it's proven. We can argue over the merit over it just don't act like merit over it.

Lucem Ferre · 04-12-2019, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

The majority of the arguments for the existence of god can easily be countered in a falsifiable manner. I don't see any of that scientific rigor behind your position.

I also don't agree with the assertion that free will can only exist if it's absolute. I also vehemently disagree with the assertion that free will can only exist if decision-making is entirely random because that would be a form of determinism in itself. I've explained this to you several times, so if you don't get it you're clearly just not there yet.

We've both made this point several times. Never seemed to be acknowledged.

Edit: You can argue that choice is predicated on the influence of consequence. Where a rock being thrown is only reacting to the past, a conscious being making a choice is reacting to what it predicts to be the future.