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-   -   The Environmental Watchdog MasterThread (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/89143-environmental-watchdog-masterthread.html)

Lisnaholic 05-01-2017 08:27 AM

The Environmental Watchdog MasterThread
 
..........................Arguably the single most important issue facing this generation is how we respond to and treat our environment.

.................................................https://fthmb.tqn.com/XY6IELnvRkuQ84...b7d0e8f300.jpg

It's obviously a huge topic which MB members have discussed on many occasions, and there are plenty of threads examining specific aspects and questions. Several of the threads were started more than five years ago, though, and haven't been updated much since.

But climate change is by definition a dynamic process, so periodic updates are fundamental to informed discussion. Statistics, circumstances and government policies are changing all the time and rather than have these changes mentioned and then lost in the "today's news" thread, I thought there should be an umbrella Environment thread to record various developments and opinions as they arise. Doesn't seem to be such a thing so far on MB, so here it is now - a dedicated holdall where we can mention any fresh news item or opinion about the environment - a bit like one of those tv programs that tell you about a farmer using solar panels in India or the declining air quality in Shanghai.

To show that I did my homework (on MB at least) here are the best threads I found about the environment/climate change etc. Feel free to explore or bump these if you'd like to re-visit old arguments:-

http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...t-fiction.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/lounge/28...-solution.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...g-swindle.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...ange-ipcc.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...ent-truth.html

http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...cs-debate.html

http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...about-end.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/lounge/77...-theories.html

riseagainstrocks 05-01-2017 08:58 AM

I would like to rescind my comments in 'The Great Global Warming Scandal' thread. I was 18 and as all 18 year olds, I was an idiot.

Climate Change is real, the natural, cyclical process has been accelerated by industry, and both mitigation and prevention strategies need to be implemented by all countries, but especially by those with the wealth and technological access to do so immediately.

A plan I like is a 5-10% tax on gasoline intended for use in personal automobiles, the proceeds of which directly fund climate research and mitigation plans. National average is around $2.32 a gallon. We can do $2.60.

Frownland 05-01-2017 09:02 AM

Gotta love this climate change skeptic (easy there, actual skeptics, not denialists) resource
Global Warming and Climate Change Myths

Trollheart 05-01-2017 09:13 AM

I think we owe Lisna thanks for putting this together. Well done, man.

elphenor 05-01-2017 09:26 AM

those threads gave me cancer with all the denialists

Goofle 05-01-2017 09:31 AM

If you still deny that there's at least some warming going on right now that is related to human activity I think it's fair to say that something's wrong in your head.

The Batlord 05-01-2017 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks (Post 1830224)
I would like to rescind my comments in 'The Great Global Warming Scandal' thread. I was 18 and as all 18 year olds, I was an idiot.

Denied. Never forget.

Frownland 05-01-2017 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1830239)
Denied. Never forget.

Science!

Lisnaholic 05-01-2017 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks (Post 1830224)
I would like to rescind my comments in 'The Great Global Warming Scandal' thread. I was 18 and as all 18 year olds, I was an idiot.

Climate Change is real, the natural, cyclical process has been accelerated by industry, and both mitigation and prevention strategies need to be implemented by all countries, but especially by those with the wealth and technological access to do so immediately.

A plan I like is a 5-10% tax on gasoline intended for use in personal automobiles, the proceeds of which directly fund climate research and mitigation plans. National average is around $2.32 a gallon. We can do $2.60.

^ Well done, riseagainstrocks ! :clap: You are like the prodigal son, a sinner who repents. Well done.
*puts on zombie voice*: You are one of us now

Here's a story that's a little stale, but indicates that small, carefully considered adjustments, like the tax riseagainstrocks mentions, can be very effective:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ged-introduced

Main thrust of story; by charging for carrier bags, UK shops have cut the use of carrier bags, saving 6 billion tons of plastic per year. ( 6bn tons is the equivalent in weight of three hundred blue whales, apparently, and now they know how many bags it takes to fill the Albert Hall.)

I wonder what your carrier bag policies are, both personally and by country?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1830227)
I think we owe Lisna thanks for putting this together. Well done, man.

Hey, thank you Trollheart! That means a lot - especially coming from such a consummate thread-starter as yourself!

rostasi 05-01-2017 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic (Post 1830262)
I wonder what your carrier bag policies are, both personally and by country?

I live in the 9th largest city in the US. We had a system implemented that encouraged you to bring your own shopping bag along when you bought groceries. You could get a plastic bag if you needed one, but it cost you 5 cents. It didn't last long because all it took was some raging right-wing asshole who thought that the "gubment just has to get into everythang..." along with a bag manufacturer to sue the city. We also had our not just physically crippled governor cry that it was the end of "our free-market model" and that we were being "California-ized" (as if that were a bad thing). During that short five months, we raised a half-million dollars for environmental groups. Not anymore. Cocksuckers.

Goofle 05-01-2017 12:01 PM

What did those environmental groups do with that money if you can remember? Asking out of genuine interest, not being smarmy.

Trollheart 05-01-2017 02:25 PM

Nobody uses plastic bags here anymore since the Govt brought in the tax on them, making the shops have to charge for them. Now almost everyone has bought one usually recyclable cloth bag which they bring when they go shopping, and occasionally you might need to buy one or two more, but mostly you bring your own bags. Small, flimsy plastic bags are still available but they're pretty useless for anything more than a few small items and most people don't bother: I've seen people walking out of Tescos holding a bunch of shopping in their arms. Seems to have worked for us anyway.

elphenor 05-01-2017 02:42 PM

Really sticking it to the socialists by letting the Wal-Mart bags fly free

Trollheart 05-01-2017 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1830316)
Really sticking it to the socialists by letting the Wal-Mart bags fly free

We've certainly seen a decrease in the amount of plastic bags just dumped on the ground since the system was initiated anyway, so it's been good for the environment. Not sure you can mock that to be honest.

elphenor 05-01-2017 03:16 PM

Hollywood pansy liberals I'm triple bagging my next 2 item purchase

Stephen 05-01-2017 04:07 PM

A few technical concerns that bother me about a wider rollout of green technology. Battery storage for rooftop solar would be a problem at end of life disposal. Not sure where they're at as far as recyclability but it's something that needs addressing before we wind up with toxic stockpiles.

Lisnaholic 05-01-2017 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1830225)
Gotta love this climate change skeptic (easy there, actual skeptics, not denialists) resource
Global Warming and Climate Change Myths

^ Yes, this site has an impressive quantity of facts and figures, and from what I saw does a good job of debunking the arguments raised by denialists. It does too good a job, really - I came away depressed after 10 mins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rostasi (Post 1830265)
I live in the 9th largest city in the US. We had a system implemented that encouraged you to bring your own shopping bag along when you bought groceries. You could get a plastic bag if you needed one, but it cost you 5 cents. It didn't last long because all it took was some raging right-wing asshole who thought that the "gubment just has to get into everythang..." along with a bag manufacturer to sue the city. We also had our not just physically crippled governor cry that it was the end of "our free-market model" and that we were being "California-ized" (as if that were a bad thing). During that short five months, we raised a half-million dollars for environmental groups. Not anymore. Cocksuckers.

^ That's a shame. One step forward, then immediately back again! In the UK I think that the money collected in bag charges also goes to environmental causes, precisely to difuse allegations that it's all a government scam. How frustrating that the logic of that detail didn't win over your fellow citizens - plus of course the common sense of having a cleaner city. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 1830344)
A few technical concerns that bother me about a wider rollout of green technology. Battery storage for rooftop solar would be a problem at end of life disposal. Not sure where they're at as far as recyclability but it's something that needs addressing before we wind up with toxic stockpiles.

^ Good point. Never thought of that, so I don't have an answer to hand I'm afraid.

Stephen 05-01-2017 04:39 PM

Speaking of environmental issues I'm not sure if the situation in Northern Australia has made much news overseas but the idiot government here is looking to bankroll a massive new coal mine and shipping port right in the middle of the already struggling Great Barrier Reef.

Lisnaholic 05-01-2017 05:09 PM

Quote:

"Is this the worst mistake that Australia could make?"
^ Yeah, I haven't seen anything about this news story anywhere.

It sounds like double bad news ; screw up the Reef some more and release a bunch of CO2. At least there seems to be some well-coordinated protesting going on.
Perhaps you'll keep us posted on how this story plays out in the coming months...

Stephen 05-01-2017 05:20 PM

Basically the freaking morons torpedoed any green incentive schemes that had been put in place and decided that coal was the way of the future. Even as China moves away from coal and the bottom is dropping out of the industry they are determined to stay the course. They had a choice of putting Australia at the forefront of green technology or tying the country to a dying industry and they chose the latter.

Sorry for the whinge it's just so frustrating.

Lisnaholic 05-01-2017 05:40 PM

Yes, it sucks when decision-makers are so fixated on the model of last century's energy solutions when there is so much evidence to show that it's no longer the best way forward.

djchameleon 05-01-2017 06:27 PM

I have to skim through those threads to make sure old me didn't say anything stupid lol.

So to add to the plastic bag discussion. The tax placed on those ends up affecting the poor so much more. Also I would hate to put meats in a cloth bag. The spread of bacteria is a definite issue.

Lisnaholic 05-01-2017 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1830453)
I have to skim through those threads to make sure old me didn't say anything stupid lol.

:laughing:

Quote:

So to add to the plastic bag discussion. The tax placed on those ends up affecting the poor so much more. Also I would hate to put meats in a cloth bag. The spread of bacteria is a definite issue.
^ I think the idea is to avoid paying the extra, dj, by going back to the old system of shoppers setting out with their own re-usable bags. That's how it was done, by rich and poor alike, from the dawn of civilization until about 1965. Historically, the one-use carrier bag is a very recently acquired bad habit.
(Also, in the UK, you can still get free carrier bags for meat, fish and other produce like that; they are exempt from the charge.)

elphenor 05-01-2017 08:51 PM

Just wash the bag

Janszoon 05-01-2017 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1830453)
I would hate to put meats in a cloth bag.

Everything about this is great.

Neapolitan 05-01-2017 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic (Post 1830220)
..........................Arguably the single most important issue facing this generation is how we respond to and treat our environment.

.................................................https://fthmb.tqn.com/XY6IELnvRkuQ84...b7d0e8f300.jpg

It's obviously a huge topic which MB members have discussed on many occasions, and there are plenty of threads examining specific aspects and questions. Several of the threads were started more than five years ago, though, and haven't been updated much since.

But climate change is by definition a dynamic process, so periodic updates are fundamental to informed discussion. Statistics, circumstances and government policies are changing all the time and rather than have these changes mentioned and then lost in the "today's news" thread, I thought there should be an umbrella Environment thread to record various developments and opinions as they arise. Doesn't seem to be such a thing so far on MB, so here it is now - a dedicated holdall where we can mention any fresh news item or opinion about the environment - a bit like one of those tv programs that tell you about a farmer using solar panels in India or the declining air quality in Shanghai.

To show that I did my homework (on MB at least) here are the best threads I found about the environment/climate change etc. Feel free to explore or bump these if you'd like to re-visit old arguments:-

http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...t-fiction.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/lounge/28...-solution.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...g-swindle.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...ange-ipcc.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...ent-truth.html

http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...cs-debate.html

http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...about-end.html
http://www.musicbanter.com/lounge/77...-theories.html

Lord Christopher Monckton - Global Warming is a Hoax

rostasi 05-01-2017 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan (Post 1830564)
Lord Christopher Monckton - Global Warming is a Hoax

:laughing: Yeah, the guy who's very nearly literally a snake oil salesman.

Lucem Ferre 05-01-2017 11:25 PM

I think it's fairly important that anybody who marches or protests to save our environment or our planet picks up their ****ing trash. Seriously. The irony of the retarded liberals in this country. And I'm not saying liberals are retarded, I'm just saying that liberals have retards among them.

Edit: Because I saw pictures of the heaps of trash left all over the streets from that earth day march for global warming or what ever. I support the cause, but not the irony.

elphenor 05-01-2017 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan (Post 1830564)
Lord Christopher Monckton - Global Warming is a Hoax

Lord Christopher Monckton

former advisor to Margret Thatcher

degree in journalism (so shocking it wasn't in a science)

creator of the "eternity puzzle" of which he was so sure nobody could solve he offered 1mil euros to the first to do so, the puzzle was ofc solved by several people

djchameleon 05-01-2017 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre (Post 1830578)
I think it's fairly important that anybody who marches or protests to save our environment or our planet picks up their ****ing trash. Seriously. The irony of the retarded liberals in this country. And I'm not saying liberals are retarded, I'm just saying that liberals have retards among them.

Edit: Because I saw pictures of the heaps of trash left all over the streets from that earth day march for global warming or what ever. I support the cause, but not the irony.

So you think there wasn't a big clean up after the event? This will always happen when there isn't enough bins to put things in. It isn't realistic to think that an event with 200,000 plus people would be spotless directly after the event GTFO.

Lucem Ferre 05-02-2017 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1830582)
So you think there wasn't a big clean up after the event? This will always happen when there isn't enough bins to put things in. It isn't realistic to think that an event with 200,000 plus people would be spotless directly after the event GTFO.

I don't know, I didn't look to far into it. I got my information from a Trump supporter. I might have been bamboozled once again. But, you know, ideally people can handle not just throwing signs or bottles or what not all over the streets. Or prepare for this perhaps.

Lucem Ferre 05-02-2017 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre (Post 1830584)
I don't know, I didn't look to far into it. I got my information from a Trump supporter. I might have been bamboozled once again. But, you know, ideally people can handle not just throwing signs or bottles or what not all over the streets. Or prepare for this perhaps.

Edit: Like, I don't know, carrying garbage bags for people to throw trash into. I know how clean ups go. Majority liters all over while a handful clean up after them. Not a good look.

Well I ****ed that up.

djchameleon 05-02-2017 12:05 AM

The way to prepare is having a massive clean up session afterwards.

There wasn't any way to predict the large turn out of people.

Lucem Ferre 05-02-2017 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1830586)
The way to prepare is having a massive clean up session afterwards.

There wasn't any way to predict the large turn out of people.

Hmm. So nobody thought a lot of people would show up despite the heavy and passionate debates going on between people who respect science and climate deniers AND the extremely public support of the event by pretty much every big name liberal celebrity?

Edit: From what I'm gathering the marchers did not clean up, they instead left trash all over the streets.

djchameleon 05-02-2017 12:11 AM

There is no way to predict the exact amount and have enough bins no matter what you say. Of course they knew a big turn out but no way to put that realistically into the perfect amount of bins needed. So carry on.

Lucem Ferre 05-02-2017 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1830588)
There is no way to predict the exact amount and have enough bins no matter what you say. Of course they knew a big turn out but no way to put that realistically into the perfect amount of bins needed. So carry on.

They? As in the city? As if it's their responsibility and not the individual's? Like people couldn't carry their own trash back to their own personal bin or along with their signs? They just got sick of carrying it and think, "well ****, they didn't give me a bin, I'll just throw it here and have the city clean it up. All they're fault, they didn't provide enough bins"

Nah, I'm not buying your bull****. And I can't find any evidence of a 'big cleanup' afterwards that wasn't the city doing it rather than the protesters.

Edit: Were you one of them? Like, why are you making **** up to defend people who aren't you? You should scold them from a pedestal like me.

djchameleon 05-02-2017 02:59 AM

I was one of them and the few pictures floating around from the event shows trash pretty neatly near the bins or signs gathered together in piles. They weren't scattered all over the place. You can tell the difference. I carried my sign and bottles in my bookings. I had to leave early so I wasn't able to volunteer for the clean up that they had afterwards.

The Batlord 05-02-2017 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1830580)
Lord Christopher Monckton

former advisor to Margret Thatcher

degree in journalism (so shocking it wasn't in a science)

creator of the "eternity puzzle" of which he was so sure nobody could solve he offered 1mil euros to the first to do so, the puzzle was ofc solved by several people

Lol. I just looked him up and Parliament had to publish a cease and desist letter on their website telling everyone that he's not a member of the House of Lords and should **** off.

Lisnaholic 05-02-2017 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre (Post 1830584)
I don't know, I didn't look to far into it. I got my information from a Trump supporter. I might have been bamboozled once again. But, you know, ideally people can handle not just throwing signs or bottles or what not all over the streets. Or prepare for this perhaps.

^ Yes, Lucem. It's sensible of you to doubt your source, I think.

Remember this:-

Spoiler for inauguration crowd pics:


Given their descriptions of the inauguration crowds, Trump and his supporters have lost all credibility about reporting on public events. They don't say what they saw, they say what they would like to have seen.
By any chance did your source tell you that it was raining all day because God was sad ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1830600)
I was one of them and the few pictures floating around from the event shows trash pretty neatly near the bins or signs gathered together in piles. They weren't scattered all over the place. You can tell the difference. I carried my sign and bottles in my bookings. I had to leave early so I wasn't able to volunteer for the clean up that they had afterwards.

^ Hey! Good for you, dj! :clap::thumb: :clap: :thumb:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1830604)
Lol. I just looked him up and Parliament had to publish a cease and desist letter on their website telling everyone that he's not a member of the House of Lords and should **** off.

^ Thanks for exposing what a charlatan this guy is. Here's a list of some of his mis-quotes and falsifications, refuted by various scientists:-

https://skepticalscience.com/docs/Mo...Scientists.pdf

rostasi 05-02-2017 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1830604)
Lol. I just looked him up and Parliament had to publish a cease and desist letter on their website telling everyone that he's not a member of the House of Lords and should **** off.

The "snake oil" part is his "cure" for AIDS, MS, Graves' Disease, etc. with some potion he states that he's created.
He keeps filing for a patent (I think 5 or 6 times) and lets the time run out for fee processing so he can say that
he's filed patents for his miracle cure (but nothing comes of them of course).


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