Political Discussions for "Adults"

~~jwb~~ · 09-05-2020, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

for OH

the case for 1 billion Americans

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...=pocket-newtab

I'm honestly rethinking my position against purely open borders

The one thing that makes pause is that if we want to construct any kind of robust welfare state in this country it could easily be overrun by people desperately fleeing the 3rd world.

But otherwise I do think we have a lot of potential for growth in this country which is pretty much dependant on immigration and without which we might not forever be in a real position to compete with China economically.

And call me a brainwashed chud all you like, I genuinely think the world in general would be worse off under Chinese dominance than American.

SGR · 09-05-2020, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

I'm honestly rethinking my position against purely open borders

The one thing that makes pause is that if we want to construct any kind of robust welfare state in this country it could easily be overrun by people desperately fleeing the 3rd world.

Isn't that a fairly standard position? I believe Milton Friedman popularized it by saying something to the effect of: you can either have free immigration or a welfare state, you can't have both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

the mass extinction is due to climate change, not lack of resources. Yes, the giant population contributes to climate change but with better technology a lot of the emissions could be avoided even with a bigger population than we have now.

Your argument is actually the foolish one since you want to fixate on one fact that we can't even change without a massive genocide rather than maybe focus on the technology which at least there's a possibility we can change it.

OH is just looking for reasons to justify his misanthropy.

OccultHawk · 09-05-2020, 11:00 AM

First off Malthus was right. I’m happy to be called a Malthusian. I don’t care if you think you can catch him in the deets. He said exponential population growth was going to be a disaster and now we're living in a disaster.

That industrial countries have waning population growth doesn’t matter because we’re like 7 billion past a sustainable population. And the world population is growing still and yes exponentially. It’s a J-curve population growth.

Many extinctions are absolutely caused by encroachment on other species space.

Manmade climate change is caused by people... who are literally the population.

There’s no ****ing argument. People are the top super predator ecosystem killing species on the planet. People make up the population. It’s that ****ing simple.

If it’s not taught in school the teachers are incompetent af.

~~jwb~~ · 09-05-2020, 11:05 AM

You're being overly simplistic either to ofuscate the argument or out of general lack of understanding.

It's not the 7 billion people that inevitably leads to climate change. We can have more than that with less climate change. It all depends on the technology you use

And the declining birth rates means the models project the population to plateau IiRC somewhere around 9 billion people which is perfectly sustainable with the right technology.

**Frownland** · 09-05-2020, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks

Isn't that a fairly standard position? I believe Milton Friedman popularized it by saying something to the effect of: you can either have free immigration or a welfare state, you can't have both.

Good ole Milton "let me make money and everything will fix itself" Friedman.

~~jwb~~ · 09-05-2020, 11:07 AM

I'm not saying it will fix itself. I'm saying the population isn't there actual problem.

OccultHawk · 09-05-2020, 11:14 AM

It’s not sustainable for other species

Other large mammals are counted by the thousands and we’re in the billions

That is ****ing insane.

And even if we could survive it would be miserable.

We’re going to run out of fossil fuels. That also means the ability to manufacture plastics. The idea that we’re going to be able to replace this resource is ****ing fantasyland.

Just the shrug and then we’ll figure it out. Yeah right.

Quote:

Your argument is actually the foolish one since you want to fixate on one fact that we can't even change without a massive genocide rather than maybe focus on the technology which at least there's a possibility we can change it.

ok elph

Except that it being inconvenient or even apocalyptic doesn’t make it any less true.

This denialism. It’s wild how the human brain will create any fantasy to pretend it’s not ****ed.

OccultHawk · 09-05-2020, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

I'm not saying it will fix itself. I'm saying the population isn't there actual problem.

How could a problem caused by people not be caused by people?

~~jwb~~ · 09-05-2020, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

It’s not sustainable for other species

Other large mammals are counted by the thousands and we’re in the billions

That is ****ing insane.

And even if we could survive it would be miserable.

We’re going to run out of fossil fuels. That also means the ability to manufacture plastics. The idea that we’re going to be able to replace this resource is ****ing fantasyland.

You're all over the place. Are you talking about other uses of fossil fuels besides energy? Because renewable clean energy is not crazy science fiction.

Quote:

Just the shrug and then we’ll figure it out. Yeah right.

Nah, flail your arms about wildly and do the doomer hokey pokey.

Quote:

ok elph

Except that it being inconvenient or even apocalyptic doesn’t make it any less true.

This denialism. It’s wild how the human brain will create any fantasy to pretend it’s not ****ed.

If it was the only possible solution you'd have a point. But you dismiss the very idea of replacing fossil fuels etc yet what is your more real, more reasonable solution? A Genocide that reduces the few remaining humans to their pre industrial conditions. Right. That's definitely less far fetched than renewable energy.

~~jwb~~ · 09-05-2020, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

How could a problem caused by people not be caused by people?

the problem is caused by emissions. Different scenarios people do have didn't levels of emissions.

09-05-2020, 11:00 AM	#8223 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	First off Malthus was right. I’m happy to be called a Malthusian. I don’t care if you think you can catch him in the deets. He said exponential population growth was going to be a disaster and now we're living in a disaster. That industrial countries have waning population growth doesn’t matter because we’re like 7 billion past a sustainable population. And the world population is growing still and yes exponentially. It’s a J-curve population growth. Many extinctions are absolutely caused by encroachment on other species space. Manmade climate change is caused by people... who are literally the population. There’s no **ing argument. People are the top super predator ecosystem killing species on the planet. People make up the population. It’s that **ing simple. If it’s not taught in school the teachers are incompetent af. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

09-05-2020, 11:05 AM	#8224 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	You're being overly simplistic either to ofuscate the argument or out of general lack of understanding. It's not the 7 billion people that inevitably leads to climate change. We can have more than that with less climate change. It all depends on the technology you use And the declining birth rates means the models project the population to plateau IiRC somewhere around 9 billion people which is perfectly sustainable with the right technology.

09-05-2020, 11:07 AM	#8226 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I'm not saying it will fix itself. I'm saying the population isn't there actual problem.