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Old 01-28-2018, 12:06 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by wolverinewolfweiselpigeon View Post
Please, enlighten us with your wisdom.

Or just call Peterson a hack to avoid admitting you don't understand lol
Explain it then please. Or better yet if you can find someone with a similar point to Peterson's who presents the concept without sounding like he's trying to sell me a car, that would be really awesome.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:13 PM   #142 (permalink)
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I don't understand what comprises more than half of human behavioral science so it's ghosts
this is the goofiest discussion
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:13 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Look, I agree that social environment shapes human behavior. Environment in general also shapes how phenotype manifests out of genotype. None of that undercuts the idea of a social heirarchy in human societies. The "social environment" in general is just a manifestation of biological imperatives to structure human societies in a certain way that are primed for fitness in their given environment/context.

Focusing on why we shouldn't compare lobsters to humans is missing the forest for the trees.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:18 PM   #144 (permalink)
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if there is actual evidence that social dominance is natural aka biological

and not a learned behavior aka cultural

Peterson has not provided it by pointing out a shared chemical in lobsters that does something entirely different in humans

it is very controversial and not something you can just assume to be true
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:18 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Look, I agree that social environment shapes human behavior. Environment in general also shapes how phenotype manifests out of genotype. None of that undercuts the idea of a social heirarchy in human societies. The "social environment" in general is just a manifestation of biological imperatives to structure human societies in a certain way that are primed for fitness in their given environment/context.
I think that the last point could be fleshed out but otherwise I agree.

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Focusing on why we shouldn't compare lobsters to humans is missing the forest for the trees.
Man if he just said his point instead of wasting 7 minutes talking about how incredibly amazing he thinks it is and how super awesome and smart and wow! his sources are, I might be more open to his ideas. Whenever I watch him it feels like I'm watching a filibuster. Must just be that Canadians suck or something.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:21 PM   #146 (permalink)
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if there is actual evidence that social dominance is natural aka biological

and not a learned behavior aka cultural

Peterson has not provided it by pointing out a shared chemical in lobsters that does something entirely different in humans
Male testosterone has been directly linked to social dominance in humans.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:30 PM   #147 (permalink)
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I think he's just a neurochemistry nerd who gets excited to find examples of, as he put it, self evident evolution. He said social hierarchies are "older than trees," which is true. I can't think of one culture, living or dead, that don't/didn't operate under basic tribalistic mechanisms. If it's less convoluted to compare ourselves to another prosocial animal, bonobos are thoroughly matriarchal.

Edit: again I want to mention Nicholas Wade's The Faith Instinct. I find myself referring back to it often in this discussion
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Last edited by WWWP; 01-28-2018 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:34 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Male testosterone has been directly linked to social dominance in humans.
What’s the point of discussing something with someone who’s starting with the premise that there are things in the universe that aren’t natural?
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:38 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Male testosterone has been directly linked to social dominance in humans.
was reading this interesting study the other day

testosterone can also promote strategic submissiveness, depends on environment

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-05603-7
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:38 PM   #150 (permalink)
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I think he's just a neurochemistry nerd who gets excited to find examples of, as he put it, self evident evolution.
Nah, his self-help style is very consistent no matter what the topic.

Quote:
He said social hierarchies are "older than trees," which is true. I can't think of one culture, living or dead, that don't/didn't operate under basic tribalistic mechanisms. If it's less convoluted to compare ourselves to another prosocial animal, bonobos are thoroughly matriarchal.
You could say the Quakers but that was very short-lived and had to plug into surrounding society to survive. Were early hunter-gatherers considered hierarchical? Certainly tribal in some elements.

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What’s the point of discussing something with someone who’s starting with the premise that there are things in the universe that aren’t natural?
I'll discuss anything with anyone, Mr. Strawman.
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