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Old 05-11-2018, 01:32 PM   #241 (permalink)
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Last time I checked there were no slavery deniers like you have with the holocaust.
We do have those people. They're not deniers in the sense that they say slavery never happened but they're deniers in the sense that they downplay how horrible and brutal it was.
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Old 05-11-2018, 01:48 PM   #242 (permalink)
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Curious what you think America could do to "truly acknowledge" it's racist history. Last time I checked there were no slavery deniers like you have with the holocaust. Black history month is a thing (even though it's stupid), affirmative action exists, etc.. People are still alive from the time when there was segregation between the races. From what I've seen we have consistently taken steps forward to progress race relations in this country. Expecting some miracle fix in such a short period of time is unrealistic. Also, history does a half ass job presenting our ENTIRE history, not just our racist history. You don't learn alt history until college, which I agree is a problem, but not just because it doesn't cover race issues. I fail to see the point in dredging up the past unless you use it to say, "this worked" or "this was an effective strategy" or "this had a terrible outcome". The past is in the past and does nothing to solve modern issues when taken out of context. History is a tool we learn from, not something you use to point fingers, unless you're agenda is to guilt people into getting what you want instead of actually resolving issues.

I have no anecdotal experience of people taking criticism and turning it into an attack on white people. I only see that kind of thing with radical twitter/internet morons that pervert the meaning of movements like "Black Lives Matter" to fit their own agenda.

I've seen you respond pretty reasonably in the past, hoping you can put some more consideration into my position than Elph.
Basically what Frown said. It's generally swept over. I don't think it is a black history thing, it's an American history thing. There were black slave owners, there were also Native slave owners. There were also tons of ****ed up things done to the Natives that should be addressed and talked about. The brutal history of our country is never really taught. The only people that learn about it are the people that take interest in it and have the time and energy to study it themselves. The most I've ever learned about it comes from the internet or through conversation.

I've seen people turn it into an attack on white people before. I've seen it happen unprovoked.
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Old 05-11-2018, 02:05 PM   #243 (permalink)
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We do have those people. They're not deniers in the sense that they say slavery never happened but they're deniers in the sense that they downplay how horrible and brutal it was.
I completely agree. All i can say is Lucem was speaking as if that is the general tone in America and from what ive experienced that is a minority opinion, similar to the holocaust example i used. Ive never heard even the people id call racist downplay the brutality of what went on, theyre just ignorant. I think that kind of mentality is found mostly within the circles of hate groups and the deepsouth kind of microcosms.

Otherwise, fair point. Perhaps thats just my ignorance from not having travelled much.
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Old 05-11-2018, 02:08 PM   #244 (permalink)
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Ive never heard even the people id call racist downplay the brutality of what went on, theyre just ignorant.
Do you mean that they're ignorant on account of their racism or are you saying that they're ignorant to the fact that they're downplaying slavery?
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Old 05-11-2018, 02:21 PM   #245 (permalink)
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I completely agree. All i can say is Lucem was speaking as if that is the general tone in America and from what ive experienced that is a minority opinion, similar to the holocaust example i used. Ive never heard even the people id call racist downplay the brutality of what went on, theyre just ignorant. I think that kind of mentality is found mostly within the circles of hate groups and the deepsouth kind of microcosms.

Otherwise, fair point. Perhaps thats just my ignorance from not having travelled much.
I think extreme downplaying may be found mostly in hate groups, but the more subtle form of downplaying it is extremely common. I would say it's what most baby boomers were taught growing up.
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Old 05-11-2018, 02:22 PM   #246 (permalink)
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1) Seriously? That’s why they’re stringing up gays?
2) You’re openly confessing you think western values are superior
1. instability and foreign threat will make people averse to moving away from tradition

2. Secularism certainly is, we do a piss poor job of representing it however
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:15 PM   #247 (permalink)
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Do you mean that they're ignorant on account of their racism or are you saying that they're ignorant to the fact that they're downplaying slavery?
On account of their racism, sorry. I was texting on the ****ter at work.

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I think extreme downplaying may be found mostly in hate groups, but the more subtle form of downplaying it is extremely common. I would say it's what most baby boomers were taught growing up.
Can you give a couple examples? I may just be oblivious to what you're trying to explain. I call my mom racist all the time, and I find her general attitude about a lot of things appalling, but typically the people like her own it and don't give a ****. They are set in their ways and apathetic, which I think is different than downplaying. If we are using different words to describe the same attitude, than sure I agree with you. Not trying to make this semantic.

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2. Secularism certainly is, we do a piss poor job of representing it however
That's because we don't live in a secular country.. lul. Don't bother responding.
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Old 05-11-2018, 04:59 PM   #248 (permalink)
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I've seen plenty of people downplay slavery. Mostly it's the "that was so long ago" or "people are still bitching about that?" stuff like this. People that aren't skin heads.
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Old 05-11-2018, 05:12 PM   #249 (permalink)
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So basically what I said about not dredging up the past... I don't feel that people should complain about slavery as if they had to endure it (or any other historical hardship). The whole "my ancestors had to go through blah blah" does nothing to aid progressive discussion. What matters is the current condition, critically thinking about ways to fix it, and using the past as a guide to make better decisions going forward. Slinging shit over history is fucking stupid.
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Old 05-11-2018, 05:46 PM   #250 (permalink)
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Can you give a couple examples? I may just be oblivious to what you're trying to explain. I call my mom racist all the time, and I find her general attitude about a lot of things appalling, but typically the people like her own it and don't give a ****. They are set in their ways and apathetic, which I think is different than downplaying. If we are using different words to describe the same attitude, than sure I agree with you. Not trying to make this semantic.
I'm not sure I understand your comments about your mother in the context of this conversation. I'm talking about the way our history of slavery is often discussed in this country. Here are a few examples that come to mind:

"You know, there were white indentured servants back then too." Indentured servants may have lived hardscrabble lives, but they weren't even remotely comparable to slaves. They weren't systematically broken and tortured like slaves were. They couldn't just be murdered with no consequence for their killer. They also chose indentured servitude and were free once they met the terms of their contract.

"It was so long ago, people just need to get over it." There were people born into slavery still alive in this country until at least the 1970s. We really aren't as far removed from that era as people like to think.

"They were better off here than they would have been in Africa." Hopefully I don't need to even elaborate on all the problems with this one.

"Their own people sold them into slavery." One of the times I heard this crap was right here on MB. People love to drop this one like its some revelatory piece of info that nobody's ever heard before, which somehow absolves American history for the crime of the slave trade. It doesn't. And of course it's also not true so that's another issue with it.

"They got free room and board, life wasn't so bad." Ignoring, of course, the fact that they were property who could be abused and disposed of just like any other piece of property. Here's a specific example of a celebrity engaging in this one.
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