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Old 05-10-2021, 04:30 PM   #11 (permalink)
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that's just what I was talking about I think. Those notions of righteousness are ultimately based on the idea that they lead to a good outcome, and that idea gets generalised by assigning those values to concepts like freedom. Then you don't even realise where it originally came from, but you have a concept like freedom that you can apply easier than 'gee let's weigh all possible outcomes of this decision'
I want a society that humans live in, to be a Human Society...responsive to ethics, not outcomes

that is to say that we should start with what is ethical...then work out what results we want from there

we create too many robotic systems based on Utilitarian principle imo
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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yeah that sounds like just a pretentious way of saying what I thought you said. Instead of flipping the order of things around you're thinking in circles, because how do you decide what is ethical?
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Old 05-10-2021, 05:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I want a society that humans live in, to be a Human Society...responsive to ethics, not outcomes

that is to say that we should start with what is ethical...then work out what results we want from there

we create too many robotic systems based on Utilitarian principle imo
You can't really separate ethics from outcome on a social level. By the time something requires a social response, it's often past the abstract state of pure ethics and well into the realm of action and outcome. I get where you're coming from though, many dishonestly define the ethics of a potential action by a hypothetical outcome that can easily be addressed case by case (the slippery slope fallacy, I guess) and on some level, public opinion molds itself around that framing and solidifies in the systems they support.
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Old 05-10-2021, 07:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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yeah that sounds like just a pretentious way of saying what I thought you said. Instead of flipping the order of things around you're thinking in circles, because how do you decide what is ethical?
you never do, really

but how can you claim which outcomes are desirable without appealing to ethics

I would think the death penalty for any first offense of drink drivin' would result in overall "less harm" in the long run, but I think most of us would reject it on the basis that it's unjust

you could wheel it around to some other kind of utilitarian argument, but I think the answer is really just that some things are wrong by default

I'm not married to that idea, but I also think utilitarianism is an attempted easy answer to an incredibly difficult question
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Old 05-10-2021, 09:23 PM   #15 (permalink)
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there's a term for this, although I don't remember it

but I lean towards some concepts inherently having value

Freedom, Truth, Justice etc

they are not justified by their outcomes, they're justified by some notion of righteousness whether it's learned or biological
is the term deontology? I think that's the most common alternative to utilitarianism.

I don't agree with you though. Like freedom doesn't have inherent value despite the outcome. . necessary limits are always put on freedom because of the bad outcomes that unmitigated freedom can cause

As for truth... See the Jews hiding in your attick and a Nazi asking you about them example

Everything is a means to and end imo

But none of these moral systems work perfectly cause they are all ad hoc rationalizations for an inner sense of morality that is ultimately more instinctual and less strictly rational... Imo
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Old 05-10-2021, 10:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
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the fact that they have inherent value doesn't mean that value is infinite, that's taking it pretty extreme

I just don't think Good Outcomes justify something like Democracy, Democracy is self-justified
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Old 05-11-2021, 12:22 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Old 05-11-2021, 01:07 AM   #18 (permalink)
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you never do, really

but how can you claim which outcomes are desirable without appealing to ethics

I would think the death penalty for any first offense of drink drivin' would result in overall "less harm" in the long run, but I think most of us would reject it on the basis that it's unjust

you could wheel it around to some other kind of utilitarian argument, but I think the answer is really just that some things are wrong by default

I'm not married to that idea, but I also think utilitarianism is an attempted easy answer to an incredibly difficult question
No, I mean ultimately your system of ethics is developed on some basis, which is most likely utilitarian. The default is deciding some abstract concepts are right or wrong, based on utilitarian principles. So that you don't have to judge outcomes case by case (even though those things are entangled, as frown said).

Also, the whole idea of an ethical system like this is that you can (in theory) determine which outcomes are desirable without ethics, in this case by somehow measuring people's happiness. No ethics are coming in there
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Old 05-11-2021, 01:17 AM   #19 (permalink)
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the fact that they have inherent value doesn't mean that value is infinite, that's taking it pretty extreme

I just don't think Good Outcomes justify something like Democracy, Democracy is self-justified
why?

It seems like the only thing you could say it's cause it's more fair or something which in itself is a sort of good outcome

Like any of those values if you drill down to the core... Freedom, truth, democracy etc are only valued because they're implicitly associated with the utility they provide
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Old 05-11-2021, 01:33 AM   #20 (permalink)
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No, I mean ultimately your system of ethics is developed on some basis, which is most likely utilitarian. The default is deciding some abstract concepts are right or wrong, based on utilitarian principles. So that you don't have to judge outcomes case by case (even though those things are entangled, as frown said).

Also, the whole idea of an ethical system like this is that you can (in theory) determine which outcomes are desirable without ethics, in this case by somehow measuring people's happiness. No ethics are coming in there

I don't think this is true

you first have to have decided that "happiness" or "harm reduction" are valuable

you can't use utilitarianism to tell you that, you simply have to believe it
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