Slint, Don Caballero, yeah, I dig it. Though KC still pwn everyone in both categories.

I have no real problem with emo, just the whole status it has, and the fanbase. Still a sad state of affairs when I think Fall Out Boy are more listenable than the majority of bands that get the Pitchforkian stamp of approval.

Fallout Boy isn't emo. I think the kids in the true emo scene are people worth meeting but that's just plain opinion. I looked through my computer and to find how many indie grovel albums I actually have and it was 16 out of about 200. So even though I do like the genre it doesn't make up of most of what I listen to. I respect King Crimson to no end though there are a lot of bands who I simply enjoy listening to more.

I think you didn't understand my original point because if you honestly did and you don't agree then I just don't understand. Selling out is not being on tv, in a comercial, in magazines, or all over the radio. I'm not so naive to think popular=bad. When you purposely dumb down your sound so you can be popular is selling out. When the object becomes how many records can we sell rather than how good can we make this album.

That wasn't my point, they're better than TV On the Radio.

Well for one, I consider Nevermind their best album, and I own their whole catelog. You're saying change in style and making more accessible albums than your last is automatically selling out. Thats a load of rubbish, accessible is not selling out. Nirvana sold out when they started making records and distrubuting them for profit, same as all the alt-hipster bands who shouldn't even be making them in the first place.

I half-read this thread, it seemed like a lot of circle arguing.

I pretty much agree with what Swim said. Selling out is when you start with this high quality, unique music; then later down the road you transcend into commercial music meant to just sell millions of records, not to be recognized for artistic integrity.

Nirvana's music did change from upholding artistic integrity to that more commercial sounding music. I know that disillusions many of you die-hard Kurt Cobain fans, but it is true.

Heh, no it's not.

You haven't even listened to In Utero have you? Its the most alternative and least accessible of their 3 studio albums.

Oh wait, I forgot, you're just going to give Steve Albini all the credit for that, he must have wrote the whole damn thing.

I like Nevermind more than Bleach, so Nirvana's "selling out" was a good thing for me.

I can't be bothered reading the whole thing, but what exactly do you regard as "selling out", Boo Boo?

i dont think anyone is going to argue that. But if you listen to bleach, or early nirvana demo's...its pretty lazy. Yes, it was more included in the scene or "artistic integrity", but i think them as artists branched out and grew up more on in utero, and nevermind.
Kurt himself even admitted to wanting to write more pop songs.

ya know, there are bands that do hold up their artistic integrity and still sell millions of records.

Selling out is something a bunch of want to be artists created to make it appear as if they had more credibility. It stems from idiot flower children rejecting the "man."

I prefer my artists to sell out, that way I don't have to listen to over pretentious stage rants or fan banter. Say what you will about green day but I don't think their pretending to be very punk rock.

Kurt wasn't trying to be more accepted, he genuinely loved pop songs. Devo and KISS were among his favorite bands for f*cks sake.

By the time of Nevermind they just had a real knack for good pop songs, thats why they became popular. This whole "manufactured for fame" stuff you're saying is bull**** Swim, you can't manufacture popularity, people either like you or they don't.

The best thing Ive ever heard about selling out was something Nicky Wire said. When some journalist accussed the Manics of selling out he said something like "we always said we wanted to sell millions of records and we didnt care how we did it. We always said we were whores."

You can't argue with that.