The Case For/ The Case Against..
 

This thread follows a regular format in Empire movie magazine which put's a classic film on trial with pro and anti reviews vying for supremacy. I thought it would be an idea to clone it and apply it to classic albums. The idea is for either a pro or anti post on a particular album that is well written and informative. You can only have one view on an album whether good or bad. Although it may seem like an excuse to pour scorn on disliked albums, I am trying to get posts that may change peoples perceptions of classic albums for better or worse.

I will begin with Led Zeppelin: 4.
http://www.angryhippy.net/images/Led_Zeppelin_4.jpg
Case against:


An album that regulary tops many U.K magazines Best Rock Album's Ever and a massive success internationally, there is no denying the albums reverence. Why?

Let's delve deeper. Album opener Black Dog whacks Robert Plant's white man blues wail upon us, followed by an electric groove blues riff. Quite a good riff. One minute later it is already grating and repetitive. The band have hammered the hell out of a fairly unoriginal riff and gave 15 year old headbangers a sore bonce the next day.

Rock N Roll follows. Yes thats what it is. The drumbeat that all aspiring rock drummers should begin with because it's quintessential. You mean easy? A song that meanders along and could and was replicated by many bands before.

The Battle Of Evermore. I get stuck here. This is a well crafted Acoustic Folk track. Nevertheless it's taken until track 3 to get a good reaction.

Stairway to Heaven. Bring it on. Let's feel the wrath. There are some fantastic aspects on this track. John Bonhams drum fills towards the end are superlative and the track is perfectly written and composed. It also begun the era of the power ballad. The slow acoustic intro. The slow build to a crescendo that feels forced and not emotional. The first couple of minutes with the flute sounds like a bad version of Fairport Convention or any multitude of Folk rock bands that were in proliferation at this time. This track is certainly not terrible yet it is an AOR reps dream and set a template for many emotional rock ballads that bombarded the scene after this.

Misty Mountain Hop. Nice drums coupled with a ridiculous vocal/guitar sync that sounds like a nursery ryhme make for a track that could have been great yet is spectaculary ordinary.

Four Sticks has some nice blues time signatures and is the nearest the band get to jamming and letting the music flow. However it seems out of place with the polished nature of the rest of the album.

Going To California is an acoustic ballad that has some nice touches yet it never engrosses me. It seems emotionally detached and a filler to break up the second side of the album.

When The Levee Breaks. The opening crime from this track is that Bonhams drum pattern was fed into a million drum machines and spewed forth to make some truly hideous tracks. Yes Bonhams perfect drum sound was a template for the first slew of drum machines. Again the lazy Blues riff is enjoyable yet is played ad nauseam, thus rendering it no better than the multitude of Blues-Rock bands that were two a penny in england in the late 60's/early 70's.

In summation. I do not hate this album at all and I can hear so many good moments on here. Unfortunately i can also hear so much unoriginal, lazy and banal songs that it makes me justify my own view that it is an overated album and not deserving of the many No1 spots it so regulary garners.

Pissing on sacred cows , i'm there :D

I think Misty Mountain Hop is about the only song on that album I can tolerate now.

http://www.cluas.com/indie-music/Por...al%20Weeks.jpg
Astral Weeks-Van Morrison, Case Against

This is by no means a bad record, and the title track is just gorgeous, but overall the album lacks any diversity and doesn't have quite the songwriting strength of Veedon Fleece or Moondance. Any album that is consistently ranked among the best of all time needs something to make it stand out from the crowd, and this just doesn't have that.

Let's just beat the schizz out of 4 before any new albums are introduced my good man!

My review:

Oh, we all take a dig at it first!

We can dig or take a dig. Astral weeks can be the next one in line. IF you expand your review.

How long do you expect? Like a full review? I thought you were just going overboard to start it off.

If you like/dislike a particular album then you have to back it up. Although it may seem like a frivolous thread, i want the thread to at least be accurate in opinions and infomative.

Gotcha. I'll write up more when we're done with IIII.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Case for:

This album marks the point in The Clash's career when they made the transition from punk rock to a more Raggae/Ska based sound. While, I, myself am not a fan of The Clash's decision to experiment witho ther genres, and wish they would have done more punk rock in their later career, actually enjoyed this album very much. When they did a genre on this album, they did it damn well.

The album starts with London Calling, a friggin' epic song. The lyrics are well written and apocalyptic. I love the beat, and I dig the bass. It's pretty much a combination of everything The Clash ever did. It's a punk song, with a raggae bass line, and an almost swingy beat. Probably my favorite track on the album.

The next song is a cover of Vince Taylor's Brand New Cadillac. I must admit, I haven't heard the original, but I don't care. I love this song. It's fifties rock 'n' roll mixed with The Clash's punk rock sound. I especially love the part when the song picks up and gets angrier (as in gets faster, thicker, and the vocals get more passionate). Love it.

Rudie Can't Fail is one of the best examples of The Clash experimenting with genres and doing it well. It's a catchy ska song that makes excellent use of a horn section.

Clampdown is reminiscent of The Clash's older work, but brings a more hard rock feel to punk rock. Like Brand New Cadillac, it has a part that picks up and it gets angrier. They did an amazing job on it. The song is catchy as hell.

Other notable songs include the raggae influenced (and the latter is all out raggae) Koka Kola and The Guns Of Brixton, Wrong Em' Boyo (an amazing track), and the rock songs I'm Not Down (love the bass line) and Death Or Glory.

Train In Vain, however is considered to be among The Clash's best songs. That one doesn't do it for me. It's boring, and extremely repetative

Overall it's an awesome album. A very good showcase of The Clash's sound. Their later experimentation with different genres was nowhere near as good as it is on this album. This is one of the definitive rock albums.

Edit: Sorry, I was writing this when you posted all that. Apologies.

I think I'm gonna have to jump in, guns blazing, to defend Astral Weeks when it comes time. Love that album!

I am with you Strummer, I will also defend Zep4 although jacks review is very fair, it comes down to his opinion to invalidate it

Led Zeppelin IV: "The Case Against" counterpoint

I won't even try to argue it as the best all-time, but it's a classic and deservedly so.

From end to end it's pure, passionate rock that spoke to it's audience like no mo music ever has before or since.

It was recorded right as the band reached the height of its popularity, when they were without question the biggest band in the world and features multiple of rock and roll standards excepted and endorsed by todays experts and musicians.

Stairway to Heaven is so good that despite the inevitable visceral disgust you feel when you hear it for the 20 millionth time, upon objective evaluation is a fantastic song that has earned it's respect.

When the Levee Breaks is one of Bonham's greatest performance's; forget what it "inspired" the Beatles, Stones etc inspired some of the worst music ever, that's not on them.

The dramatic opening is so good it makes you laugh the first few times you hear it.

You can identify 6 of the 8 songs within the first 6 notes.

So Good It has no official name. Man with Sticks c'mon, brilliant.

Led Zeppelin is of course a favorite of mine and though not my favorite artist ever, in my opinion the best ever. I am not objective in my fandum but I feel like there are far more non-emotional points to be made for then against.

I'm going to three musketeer this pro-astral weeks campaign.

I'll happily back up London Calling if the time comes. I'd try a Zep4 case against but Jackhammer summed up my feelings well. They're songs that are good at first but tire very quickly, i only really come back to Rock n' Roll.

And was never even supposed to be on the album.

Alfred...you need to beef up your statements. Twice, you say that the music "gets angrier." Maybe you could describe what actually happens in the song that leads you to interpret certain moments as "angrier" than others. Describe the music just as much as your reaction to it.

Instead you get crap like this.

Sometimes you just have to accept failure.

How many goddamn ****ing times do I have to tell you? Not only that Zeppelin only stole lyrics not riffs but even so you're compelled to mention it all the goddamn time when describing any of their music, what riffs were stolen on this album? None, you didn't even give an example and thats because you can't, yeah you'll pull the whole Taurus thing out of your ass and with complete disregard for how horrible an example it is. Its completely irrelevant for you even to bring this **** up, you can't just express you're dislike for the album, you just GOTTA TROLL, and you're obviously trolling because i've already told you god knows how many damn times how it annoys me and that I'd wish you would stop.

Phew, anyway Jack. You can't change someones perceptions of the music they listen to, most peoples tastes are written in stone, if you think you're rantings about an album is gonna have any impact on other peoples perceptions about it, you're in lalaland.

I'd be no good at this. But

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...kePinkMoon.jpg

The case against:

I'm not gonna bother reviewing this song for song (they're barely distinguishable anyway) because that means I would have to revisit this album since I deleted it from my computer, to hell with that, this was incredibly boring, like mad insane boring. I've heard 5 minute Yngwie Malmsteen acoustic guitar solos that are less boring than this. I've never been one to value music because of its lyrics, thats the only thing that explains the appeal of this boring lad who both sings and plays guitar like he's on a sedative.

Have you listened to Bryter Layter?

Yah, Five Leaves Left has a good mix of everything he's done while maintaining a unique sound of it's own.

I don't know why you'd suggest him Five Leaves Left when he disliked the acoustic stuff since Bryter Layter is almost completely full band and way better.

I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying it's better.

Yeah, Five Leaves Left is quite good... at the moment I prefer Bryter Layter though and I suggested it because it's completely different to Pink Moon.

I enjoy Pink Moon, but I find it manages to become a bit repetitive, even within 28 minutes.

Already this has descended into chaos. Many thanks to Jayjamjah to provide a counterpoint and that is what I wanted more.
I will change the format with the proviso that any album that starts discussion, needs a week on show to provide argument and counter argument.

A PM with an album idea will place you next in line and a week of debate.

You want specific examples of Led Zeppelin stealing songs/riffs/lyrics? I can give you plently off the top of my head, Page made a career off of ripping off other artists, especially blues artists and then giving himself songwriting credits. There is nothing wrong with covering a song, as long as credit is given. So, some songs Led Zeppelin "adapted" (a lot of times just changed the song title slightly for the original):
"Dazed and Confused" was by Jake Holmes, "Whole Lotta Love" was adapted from a Willie Dixon song called "You Need Love," ""How Many More Years" is adapted from Howlin' Wolf's -"How Many More Times," "Gallow's Pole" was nicked from Leadbelly's "Gallis Tree," "Black Mountainside" was adapted from Bert Janch's "Black Waterside," ""Bron- Y-Stomp" was adapted from a Bert Jansch/John Renbourn arrangement of "The Waggoner's Lad."

In some cases they almost word for word took lyrics. In others the songs are basically covers of the original, except with Plant/Page taking songwriting credits. There are plenty of other Zeppelin tunes that Page lifted from places, he consistently ripped parts of songs off from other artists. Anything that is a Zeppelin original is guaranteed to have poor songwriting and generally poor composition.

Okay to be fair to Led Zeppelin; blues artists made a career out of doing the same thing and since none of them had the impact or popularity Led Zeppelin did no one really cares. Hell even folk artists did it, ever listened to the "originals" on Dylan's debut? Song to Woody sounds exactly like 1913 Massacre yet he took all the songwriting credits.

That is true, a lot of Zeppelin songs were blues standards (especially their debut). A lot of blues artists covered each other's work and I don't think anyone cared much.

However, I think Page was deliberately dishonest on several occasions. Namely with Jake Holmes and "Dazed and Confused." He saw Holmes live and was inspired by the song. So he reworked it with the Yardbirds and claimed it as his own. Holmes has never received any royalties for the song and Page denied knowing who Holmes was or who did the original version of "Dazed and Confused." When Holmes contacted Led Zeppelin about the matter, they didn't even bother to respond to his inquiry.

Page doesn't seem to respect old blues artists, nor does he seem to care if they are credited or not. Plus the practice of changing the song titles is pretty suspicious.

Fair enough, I'm not trying to piss people off. Boo Boo seemed to want some examples of songs, so I hope I was able to help him out. I try to keep things as factual as possible, my apologies for opinionated statements.

Which is funny seeing as I just stuck up for Led Zeppelin.

Looks like somebody did a quick copy and paste job here. I've heard all these examples being used, countless times. And I've heard all the songs that Page allegedly stole from. And this is what I think of your piss poor examples.

Dazed and Confused - For one, thats not a stolen riff, ITS A COVER. Zeps spin of the song is very different anyway. Pages playing on that song is entirely original.

Seriously, tell me this

YouTube - Dazed and Confused

and this

YouTube - Led Zeppelin - Dazed And Confused

Are the same.

Whole Lotta Love - You know what this song stole from You Need Love? The Lyrics. AND THATS IT, THATS ALL THEY STOLE. And how about Zeppelins lyrics, oh yeah, no serious Zep fan is gonna tell you they had great lyrics.

This is the Willie Dixon song You Need Love.

YouTube - Willie Dixon -- You need love

No sale.

How Many More Times - First off, you had it backwards, it was the Howlin Wolf song thats called How Many More Years. Now this is a better example, it most certainly isn't a ripoff though, but its clearly an inspiration, particarly the vocal melody, but the music and structure is insanely different, not the same song at all. And hilariously enough you miss the point yet again, Pages riff on HMMT is not stolen from anything, it was an original contribution. Do you hear the riff in this song?

YouTube - Howlin' Wolf - How Many More Years

Didn't think so.

Gallows Pole - What you failed to realise is, this is actually a version of a centuries old folk song, Lead Belly did NOT pen this song, he just made a famous recording of it. Its not known who actually wrote it, so you can't blame Zeppelin for not crediting anyone.

Black Mountain Side - This time you're right, it pretty much is a ripoff of blackwaterside. So congrats you managed to make one good example.

Too bad Black Mountain Side is one of the most forgetable tracks Zeppelin have ever done. :laughing:

Bron-Yr-Aur Stomp - Ok, yeah its pretty much the same riff, I would call that a stolen riff, IF it weren't for the fact that Jansch didn't write The Waggoners Lad and that its yet another traditional song with no credited writer. Everything else about this song is original, the lyrics and the vocals, so they made it their own.

So what I'm getting at here is. You just failed on a massive level.

Someone call the cops, Zeppelin stole lyrics? And all this time we thought Plant was such a brilliant lyricist. Oh wait. Nope, who cares?

Only Dazed & Confused comes to mind, which is still vastly different from the original in both the way it sounds and its overall structure, usually when Zeppelin covered something, they added a lot to it and made it their own.

I'm not gonna defend them for that. But it dosen't justify all the lies, and there are many lies.

And yet you fail to make any examples. They can't possibly be as laughable as the ones you just gave, or can they?

Besides, Ethan is actually right, do you even know anything about the structure of 8 and 12 barre blues or the blues scale? Its awfully simple and generic. Its not unusual at all for blues guitarists to have riffs or solos that sound similar to another by just sheer coincidence.

:laughing:

Absolutely not.

Music fans like you make me sick to my stomach, its not that you don't like Zeppelin, I'm used to people hating Zep. But its when you take a lot of these exagerations and downright filthy lies passed down from many a bitter douchebag going to extremes just to try and discredit a band they don't like.

And thats the thing, you obviously did no research on this matter AT ALL, you just read it on Wikipedia and some other websites and instantly took it for truth, because you want a lousy excuse to justify your elitist attitude about Led Zeppelin and their fans.

Right, we clearly have different interpretations of the music. And again, I didn't say all of the songs were complete rip offs, I pointed that out rather clearly in my post. And there was no copying and pasting from anywhere, although I have done my research over the years to support my arguments. However, if you want more examples I found these here (didn't even know about some of them):

Led Zeppelin

# "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page," then "words and music by Jimmy Page," and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."
# "Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).
# "Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."
# "Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down," with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."
# "Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."
# "How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."
# "In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).
# "The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70s and settled out of court.
# "Moby ****" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love," and later covered by Bobby Parker.
# "Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.
# "Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never," though the music isn't similar.
# "White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

And I don't have the time or the desire to go and hunt down other examples.

I am very familiar with the 8 and 12 bar blues and the blues scale. I love the blues, it's one of my favorite genres of music. Anything from Son House to Mississippi John Hurt to Reverend Gary Davis, etc. I love and enjoy listening to.

You can't complain about not being able to see examples and then get upset when some are posted. Let's keep the discussion civil, no need for animosity or name calling.

Man. This is fun. That link is complete garbage.

Again, I already addressed the fact that Zeppelin covered songs but didn't credit the writers, as lowdown as that was, fair is fair. This IS a cover, not a ripoff. Even so, it sounds VERY different from both Bredons version and the Joan Baez version. The riff is not the same, and Plants vocal style is quite a different take on it.

Yeah the intro and outro are uncredited covers. Everything inbetween is entirely original, and thats the part of the song thats freaking awesome.


Now this is just a bullcrap shot in the dark comparison based on a very generic use of simple chords. I don't hear the similarites at all myself. This is one of the best examples of Zep haters getting desperate.

So yeah, thats how people come to the conclusion that Communication Breakdown is a stolen song, based entirely on two riffs that don't even sound alike, and what else was "stolen" you might ask? Nothing. Entirely original song. Just happens to have a similar title and thats probably where people came to the conclusion that the song is influenced by it somehow. Curse you Led Zeppelin, stealing the word "breakdown", how dare you?

Once again, only the lyrics.

Its actually a medley of different blues songs.

Never mind that its one of the worst songs Zep ever did.

Nay. Its not really a cover, just inspired by it. The riff and beat sure ass hell aren't the same. And thats what drives the song. And all they stole from The Hunter were lyrics. Hmm... I see a pattern here.

Its a traditional song as in the writer is unknown, who in the hell are they gonna credit?

I guess they mean they should have called it "traditional", and that they should, yet another example of an uncredited cover, not a ripoff.

And I think I've already explained that Zeppelins covers are almost always radically different from the original songs. They make everything their own.

Nope. Not a cover. They took the lyrics (lol) and yes the riff that comes in at 1:28 is clearly a homage to the song. And thats what it is, a homage. Bands can't pay homages? Then All You Need is Love is a ripoff of She Loves You, by that logic.

:rofl:

Whoever wrote this is just making crap up now. Its NOT a cover. The riff does sound pretty similar to Watch Your Step by Bobby Parker which is NOT a cover of The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair by Sleepy John Estes. Moby D*ck is not related to that song at all, Page simply used the riff before in a song from the BBC sessions called The Girl I love, I don't think its even a Sleepy John cover, dumbasses couldn't even get their facts straight. The riff to I Feel Fine by The Beatles also sounds very damn similar to it, just as much as the Moby D*ck riff does.

Maybe Page did steal this riff, unfortunately so did John Lennon. Small world eh?

Wrong, just the lyrics, AGAIN, just the lyrics.

Lyrics you say?

They guys apparrently cant tell the difference between influence and covers. Its not a cover.

Look I'm not insulting you here, a little angry sure. But you're saying stuff without checking your facts, and you're citing sources that are biased and incredibly inaccurate, that site got a lot of things wrong. Sorry but I call bull**** when you pick an argument with me and can't back up your claims with any real facts.

@boo boo: stop it

Why give any credence to these people.

Zeppelin haters are typically not like Jackhammer who just doesn't enjoy their music, most feel the need to try to discredit the band by using those same tired exaggerated accounts.

Let's get this thread back on track.

The topic for discussion is Led Zeppelin IV; make a case for or against it as a classic album, otherwise provide a counterpoint to another posters take.

If we are done with this discussion the next album is Astral Weeks; same charge to you people.

Stop what? I'm done. Sorry for going off topic. But I just hated how he used such an uncredible source to try and prove a point. I had to inform him of his mistakes. Just had to nip that thing in the bud.

Did they or did they not take stuff from most of those songs I posted? You yourself pointed out similarities, riffs, and lyrics that were taken from other songs. I don't know why you keep saying I'm not bringing forward any real proof. Plus you can't really bring bias into this, because you are judging the songs with strong Led Zeppelin bias. All I want to do is admit that Led Zeppelin tended to take parts of songs or adapt songs from other artists and then not give them credit for it. It's as simple as that.

Good grief. What IS wrong with these people? As you say, it's a freakin' VARIATION of a guitar lick! EVERYBODY in the 60s bloody well played variations of some guitar lick that was itself invented by a Blues artist like Bobby Parker etc. Most riffs in popular music are variations of some way earlier idea. That's not called ripping off or plagiarism. That's about as idiotic as claiming that it's a rip-off to re-use a drum beat. What a bunch of tards.

Yes, certainly I agree that that is plagiarism. As for adapting/creating a variation of a well-known guitar lick, that's no more plagiarism than using a drumbeat or a fill.

I mean, the song gets more intense. The guitars get thicker, the music gets faster, and Strummer/Jones/Whoever sings in that particular song's voice becomes more passionate.

By the way, I totally agree with the main gist of your argument about Zep. I just think it's silly how some people in general get so obsessive about rip-offs that they'll claim a variation on a fookin' guitar lick is a rip-off, while it just isn't. Musical development has been all about adapting other people's ideas and motifs for centuries. That's how music changed and moved on - in lots of very little steps. Even Zep's cases of blatant plagiarism somehow lead to a wider development within popular music.

Yeah, Taurus by Spirit was pretty awful, aside from the riff. Stairway To Heaven was ten times better.