I-Doser
 

I looked it up and the Recreational Drug Thread was the only result, but for time's sake, seeing as its 110 pages, I would just make this. Because that's obviously about REAL drugs. Firstly, it is quite annoying for anyone to hear the concept and say "ohhh that can't be real!" I see comments on youtube videos of certain doses that were posted and people REALLY think you will get high listening to the Marijuana one, or drunk listening to the Alcohol one. Binaural Beats and the science behind them has been around for over 100 years. It's not some new found gimmick. It is simply a recreational program that alters your brainwaves (if done correctly) to a certain level, and accordingly, feel certain effects. I-Doser refined the science and have made doses that attempt to recreate certain feelings. There is one dose called Insomniac that will put you to sleep, and for me it is very effective. I imagine because the brain has 4 basic levels, sorted in accordance to the amount of activity going on. The higher the level, the higher the amount of activity. So it simply lowers your brain waves to a state of relaxation, and eventually, sleep. I haven't tried any of the drug ones yet, but I may soon. I had some bizarre results with a few of the doses that I have tried. I don't want to do them all at once, so I spread them out. Chances are, it wouldn't be a good idea to do too many at once anyway, since it's dealing with brain activity. Have any of you tried this program yet?

I'm kind of interested...but I haven't found anywhere to listen for free :/

It's bull****. I downloaded a track and it didn't do anything but give me a slight headache.

and did you do what you were supposed to? No distractions, turn everything off around you, no light, lay down, and most importantly, a good pair of overhead headphones

I did, and yeah.

It's just annoying noises.

They aren't noises they are tones at different hertz levels. It's not meant to be "pleasant" sounding. They're not making music.

gee whiz. who gives a shit, if it sounds like noise, its noise

sorry that you opened a thread that I posted and didn't find it interesting? Actually, there IS noise. Pink noise and white noise. If you just said it's weird or it just sounds like noise it would have been fine. No need for the "who gives a ****" or any reason to get all hostile

What annoys me a lot is that people don't understand how they are affected by things. When new treatments and so on are tested on people, every form of treatment which is not dangerous to the administered should be expected to have beneficial effects.

For this reason, every new medicine that comes out on the market has to be tested against sugar pills of all thing. You know why? It's because sugar pills also make people feel better. New medical products like new medicines have to do significantly better than the sugar pills.

Healing, soundwaves, magic, whatever - just about everything can have a placebo effect. Has I-Doser been tested against placebo?

I don't think it needs to be, since the people that truly believe in it are more the minority than anything. As you can see from most of the replies, many just find it to be static and weird noises. It's still an ongoing science, but about the placebo effect, I don't understand how it could need one. The program really can change your brainwaves, it's just a matter of the "effect" you get. THAT can be misconstrued and exaggerated. So maybe they will do one someday, but I don't think it's mainstream enough yet.

This is an unsourced statement which is a no-no .. And using I-Doser propaganda as a source (if you're thinking of that) would also be a no-no. You don't know that it alters your brainwaves. You believe that it does. If you wanna claim that it actually has a physiological effect, you should find a serious source to back it up.

Anyways, even registered users on i-doser.com are conflicted about this. Check out the poll from their forums -> I-Doser.com :: View topic - The Official "Does It Work?" Poll

And they want you to pay for this service .. I would be sceptical. ;)

I'm totally with you on this one toretorden.

Who needs this shit , I own 4 Nurse With Wound albums.

Yeah I'm skeptical about anything charging as much as they are. The "only authorized guide." I'm extremely interested in trying it, just not in paying for it.

Sources? Alright. This comes straight out of the I-Doser guide, written by the man who created the concept. This section is "how it works", if you want the next section which is about how it affects you, I can post that as well. As for some people and it not working, of course it doesn't work on everyone! Tylenol has never had an effect on me, regardless of how much I would like it to. Another thing is, the brain is sensitive to any outside stimuli. So even light getting into your eyes can effect it. The more you can focus and have no disruptions, the more the beat will have an effect. And some people get no effect at all, even IF they do it right. It's different for everyone, just as everything is.

"How it Works

When signals of two different frequencies are presented, one to each ear, the brain detects phase differences between these signals. 'Under natural circumstances a detected phase difference would provide directional information. The brain processes this anomalous information differently when these phase differences are heard with stereo heaphones or speakers. A perceptual integration of the two signals takes place, producing the sensation of a third "beat" frequency. The difference between the signals waxes and wanes as the two different input frequencies mesh in and out of phase. As a result of these constantly increasing and decreasing differences, an amplitude-modulated standing wave - the binaural beat - is heard. The binaural beat is percieved as a fluctuating rhythm at the frequency of the difference between the two auditory inputs. Evidence suggests that the binaural beats are generated in the brainstem's superior olivary nucles, the first site of contralateral integration in the auditory system (Oster, 1973). Studies also suggest that the frequency-following response originates from the inferior colliculus (Smith, Marsh, & Brown, 1975)" (Owens & Atwater, 1995). This activity is conducted to the cortex where it can be recorded by scalp electrodes. "

Oster, G. (1973). Auditory beats in the brain. Scientific American
Owens, J.E. & Atwater, F.H. (1995). EEG correlates of an induced altered state of consciousness: "mind awake/body asleep".
Smith, J. C., Marsh, J. T., & Brown, W. S. (1975). Far-field recorded frequency-following responses: Evidence for the locus of brainstem sources. Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology

I think you missed toretorden's point. He's looking for third-party sources.

If you copied and pasted that from the I-Doser webpage, then you're taking information from the people who sell the product. They are, of course, biased. They wouldn't say that it doesn't work.

And what you posted doesn't even explain how it works. It only describes how this "binaural beat" supposedly can be percieved. It does not explain how this can mimic the effects of drugs like cocaine or hallucinogenics.

Yeah I know that's the next section. I'll post that too. What do you mean they're biased? Did you read the sources? They knew all about binaural beats before the guy that created I-Doser knew they existed. You're acting like all these people (who, again, wrote these things WAY before I-Doser was conceived) were all "in on it". Of course he wrote things from people who say it works! He DID say at the very beginning of the guide that it isn't for everyone. If you don't believe it works, great! That's fine, if you believe it can, then try it! He includes 2 free doses and if you don't feel anything, then don't try any more.

Altered States

Binaural beats can easily be heard at the low frequencies (<30 Hz) that are characteristic of the EEG spectrum (Oster, 1973). This perceptual phenomenon of binaural beating and the objective measurement of the frequency-following response (Hink, Kodera, Yamada, Kaga, & Suzuki, 1980) suggest conditions that facilitate entrainment of brain waves and altered states of consciousness. There have been numerous anecdotal reports and a growing number of research efforts reporting changes in consciousness associated with binaural-beats. "The subjective effect of listening to binaural beats may be relaxing or stimulating, depending on the frequency of the binaural-beat stimulation" (Owens & Atwater, 1995). Binaural beats in the delta (1 to 4 Hz) and theta (4 to 9 Hz) ranges have been associated with reports of relaxed, meditative, and creative states (Hiew, 1995), and used as an aid to falling alseep. Binaural beats in the alpha frequencies (8 to 12 Hz) have increased alpha brain waves (Foster, 1990) and binaural beats in the beta frequencies (typically 16 to 24 Hz) have been associated with reports of increased concentration or alertness (Monroe, 1985) and improved memory (Kennerly, 1994). Passively listening to binaural beats may not spontaneously propel you into an altered state of conciousness. One's subjective experience in response to binaural-beat stimulation may also be influenced by a number of meditating factors. For example, the willingness and ability of the listener to relax and focus attention may contribute to binaural-beat effectiveness in the inducing state changes. "Ultraradian rythms in the nervous system are characterized by periodic changes in arousal and states of consciousness (Rossi, 1986; Shannahoff-Khalsa, 1991; Webb & Dube, 1981). These naturally occurring shifts may underlie the anecodtal reports of fluctuations in the effectiveness of binaural beats. External factors are also thought to play roles in mediating the effects of binaural beats" (Owens & Atwater, 1995). The perception of a binaural beat is, for example, said to be heightened by the addition of white noise to the carrier signal (Oster, 1973), so white noise is often used in the background. "Music, relaxation exercises, guided imagery, and verbal suggestion have all been used to enhance the state-changing effects of the binaural beat" (Owens & Atwater, 1995). Other practices such as humming, toning, breathing exercises, autogenic training, and/or biofeedback can also used to interrpt the homeostasis of resistant subjects (Tart, 1975).

I prefer real drugs to fake ones, but that's just me.

To each their own :beer:

I actually don't like Beer, and my last name is Beers. and I am half Irish, half German. Something isn't right :confused:

A main problem here is that your source is still not trustworthy :D Science is supposed to be unbiased. It means that you, as a scientist, do your scientific work without a pre-concieved agenda. You are supposed to be objective. Having a specific agenda, like making money, corrupts science.

The thing here is that so far, it doesn't seem like the guy who wrote this has done any research of his own. It looks more like a review and indeed, he seems to quote other articles, although which ones we don't know since you're not pasting a reference list. We don't even know if these articles he supposedly quote are accepted by the scientific community or not.

This guy is just taking claims and backing them and so far, we can't check his sources. He could be misquoting or using them in a misleading manner. He has the motive to do so, he is selling a product after all and is probably not a scientist.

Let's say he is trustworthy .. The text still does not explain how binaural beats can mimic the effects of hard drugs.


You probably think I'm just being difficult and that I don't understand, but I do. I'm working on my own scientific thesis in ecology and work alongside scientists and read articles etc. all the time .. and one of the very basic things all scientists learn is to be sceptic. Especially when there's a motive involved! Believe it or not, but if people want to fool other people, they are quite good at making the incredible seem credible. I'm sure I could back up some rather fantastic claims myself without that much trouble. That's why the guy behind I-Doser is likely not a good source.

No I understand, I know scientists are meant to have an inherent skepticism. That's all fine and well, if you don't like him as a source as well, that's fine too. I am more interested in binaural beats than the actual program or the founder. I am used to skeptics, trust me. (I believe in ghosts... is that a no-no?) I just find the program extremely fascinating because I have had results, and no, I am not actively "searching" for one. The "doses", as they are called, are not all drugs. I have tried sleep ones, which some worked and some were too sensitive for me. There are ones too that have no description other than
"unexplainable". So I can't fake any results because it is still new to me and I still don't know what is going to happen.

If you think it's simply about toretorden "not liking him as a source" I don't think you do understand actually.

No he thinks he isn't reliable, and that's fine :) He thinks he isn't because it sounds as if he is biased, and not looking at it skeptically which people in the field of science should do. It makes sense and isn't complex. I could have reworded it.. i'm sorry?

What he's talking about is basically a given when you're looking at data. Whose assessment of a new Ford would you trust, Ford's or an impartial third party's?

An impartial third party, yes I understand all of that. He was using sources from various people and took out parts to reinforce his argument instead of getting sources from both sides. We also don't know if those sources that he used are reliable. But it's not like I am doing a project or something. I use the program, I get an effect, and I'm happy. If, in the scientific community, those sources are regarded as undependable or fallible, then that is a shame. But I am not interested in the scientific research as much as I am in the actual product. Is someone that does marijuana interested in doing research on how it can affect them? The only reason I posted those things was to show that he had done research, however if that research doesn't meet your standards, take it up with him.

I have heard allot from both sides of this new "Drug". I have even read some news paper reports about angry mothers trying to ban it ("F***ing unbelievable! :laughing:) I would be interested in finding out if it worked for the whole "Being able to do drugs and still pass a piss test" aspect. generally speaking though, i would prefer real ones, they have been tested and approved for years.
My thought is this though: Theoretically speaking, if you can recreate the effects of a drug and make your brain get "High" just with audio, couldn't you also make some one mentally challenged, or use it to make people do things against their will. I'm just spit balling ideas for the discussion, but if they could make a case about Marilyn Manson influencing the columbine shootings, what could they do with this one?

That is the point of the placebo test. Make sure people arent lying to get money before it gets mainstream.

No,, because all you need to do to make it completely ineffective is to think about anything while the dose is being "administered". If you keep your mind busy on other things, you won't get affected by the audio, because in essence, your brain isn't paying attention. As for the placebo concept, can't anything be a placebo? There have been people who are given water and told that it is alcohol and actually get drunk. But for this, if you keep thinking "ohh I wonder what I am gonna feel" or "this is so weird" the whole time then you won't be as affected. For me it's more of a meditative thing than a "drug" or anything like that. About the people wanting to ban it, yeah i'm not surprised :laughing: I can only imagine how many things are gonna be blamed on it

I tried "content" - smiled for the first 4 minutes into it then turned it off

Alchohol -felt heavy and tired. Turned it off after like 30 minutes.

Peyote - Body tingled. Heart beat faster, thinking was a little slowed. Did it again this morning, fell asleep. Did it in school and objects seemed to morph a little. I kept going into trances. I was also really wishing it could work.


Marijuana - I fell asleep while listening to this but felt a little bit of an elation although not much.

I think this is false marketing, by naming it as the name of recreational drugs. I was hoping for an experience like one of those and i did not get one. Bah.

I think as an effective placebo test you could just get a group of people un-paid participants, have a few people listen to the real stuff. Have a few people listen to a close recreation that isn't programmed to do anything but makes similar sounds, and have a controlled group that listens to like.... John Zorn or something. Tell all of the groups to do the same things. Concentrate, no light, clear your brain... all of that. I think it would be pretty revealing.
And i am into meditation on a personal level. I think it is helpful, and there were times in my own meditations that i have felt similar to "drugged", but that's neither here nor there.

I haven't tried any of those haha :laughing: the strongest reaction I had to any of them was the White Crosses one

and sumguy yeah I would be interested in seeing results of a test like that

Oh and cocain was annoying, made me twitch alittle, and i fell asleep, too.

haven't tried that one either. I'm not interested in the drug ones, I am more interested in the weird ones that have strange descriptions like Black Sunshine, White Crosses and A-Bomb

I'm just a wanna-be junkie.

hahaaaha!! :laughing:

The first step is admitting that you have a problem. Hopefully they come up with some for of AA for this stuff. It is ruining lives.:laughing:

Audioaholics Anonymous

If people have their healthy scepticism intact and still wanna try it despite that it costs money, that's fine with me. I wouldn't bother with it and I don't like the idea that someone might be selling placebo. If it was free, it wouldn't matter as much.

To me, it just seems too much like they are trying to sell placebo. All the tips they give you - relax, concentrate, believe, don't be distracted - are things that should help give you a placebo effect. Doing all that and concentrating on sound should also likely have a meditative effect and for those who have tried that will know that a certain feel of tingliness, heaviness and so on, is common when meditating. That along with placebo should all add to the illusion that this stuff works. It's like the perfect scheme.

Well, for me it is. I expect that if you take a group of ten people, shove'em into a spooky house, give them an ouija board and tell them the place is haunted, then they're gonna have "paranormal experiences", ghosts or not. It is also a kind of placebo effect .. ;)

However, I'm open to the concept of ghosts. It hasn't been disproved, but it's not proven either. Aside from being biased towards science and the empirically proven in general, I would rather be proven wrong as a non-believer than as a believer.

There are lots of people and products out there that try to exploit the vulnerable and the gullible. Check out this video here for example for a story about a woman who's made it her life to deceit others.




And if you wanna watch something absolutely hilarious regarding ghosts, you should watch this video where they make up a ghost story connected to this old building, then invite lots of mediums and see what they all come up with .. One woman even gets possessed by the ghost they made up. ;)



I have had "ghost experiences" myself, but I think they were the product of my own imagination, really.

See now I believe in ghosts, but I don't believe in the spiritual aspect of it. (Psychics, mediums, whatnot). I never have. Although there was one time where Ghost Hunters did a reading with Jason Hawes and some random psychic and got something pretty weird, I wish I could find a video. In essence, the psychic asked the same questions psychics always do, BUT they had a thermal image camera pointed at both of them. At that point you see what looks like heat moving from Jason to the psychic, then the psychic moves his hand, and it disappears. That was the only thing I ever saw that made me question myself about them believing, but just seeing that isn't nearly enough. And about I-Doser, I know it does seem like that. But if I was in a dark room with my eyes closed and focusing on music I would either turn it off and watch TV, or go to sleep. I have HORRIBLE ADD so focusing is damn near impossible. And the one that I tried called White Crosses actually gave me physical pain. It was really bizarre. I thought it was gonna be fun, but that one wasn't. and that second video is HILARIOUS!! I love it. I can't stand psychics

I tried a free "dose" from Wikipedia (it's in the article under: Binaural Beats). It was pretty interesting. I could obviously speculate that it was a placebo effect but either way I found the experience enjoyable. This sample starts with a 20Hz beat, gradually slows down to btwn. 7 and 8 Hz and then gradually speeds back up to 16hz.

As the beats slowed down, I found body warming up. I was still the whole time, lying face up on my bed. My body may have just been heating up but my heart rate increased a little and I had a euphoric feeling that increased as time went on. As the beating speed began to increase again there was a very noticeable difference in my brain activity. I didn't hallucinate in any way but my imagination began to run far more wild. This is not an uncommon thing for me when I am resting but the changing of speeds definitely seemed to act as a catalyst. I also had a very different perception of time as the increase from 8 Hz to 16 felt like at least a third of the process when in reality it was only 5 of 30 minutes.

Overall: I think that the "dose" acted as a good form of assisted meditation and I appreciated the affect it had on me, placebo or not. I'm going to try another "dose" and see what the results are. I was definitely pleasantly surprised. The Wikipedia article cleared up some questions I had, but as always Wikipedia is sketchy at best.

Binaural beats - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ohh that's awesome!! I remember my first experience, it was so bizarre I didn't know what to make of it.