Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart?

TockTockTock · 08-11-2011, 12:04 AM

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Originally Posted by Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

In a lot of ways, I adore Captain Beefheart, but feel his influence/personality often outweigh the quality of his musical output.

Explain please...

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Essentially, Beefheart had his thing that he perfected for Trout Mask Replica, and polished with Lick My Decals Off, but I think he really failed to go anywhere from there. As ingenious as a lot of the subtle values of his work, once you get past those it's all just basically all just off timed blues with abstract lyrics.

While I will not deny that Frank Zappa had a far more eclectic discography than Beefheart, I will have to disagree with you on the "off timed blues" comment. I think there's a little more to albums like Doc at the Radar Station and Shiny Beast (Bat Chain Puller) than that... but we're all entitled to our own opinions... Ice Cream for Crow, on the other hand, was rather unimpressive (to me that is).

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Beefheart's only attempt at evolution after "Lick My Decals Off" was a failed attempt at a commercial sound for years ended in just a reversion to the Trout Mask Replica sound.)

Except for the fact that TMR didn't have the punkish abrasiveness of Doc at the Radar Station, nor the more controlled sound of the instrumentals of Shiny Beast (Bat Chain Puller). Not to mention, I feel that Shiny Beast had more variety in terms of his use of different instruments as well as the album's overall song composition.

I guess the two albums just have different atmospheres than Lick My Decals Off Baby and Trout Mask Replica (I can't completely put my finger on it).

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Plus, I've never been keen on Beefheart's ridiculous ego, and insane obsession with having to mix the instrument tracks down to nothing so his, admittedly awesome, voice could be heard.

Zappa had a hell of an ego, too... don't forget that. However, I do agree with you on how Beefheart mixed some of the music. He somewhat stopped that with his last three releases, though.

Also, I thought you didn't care about the artist, but more about the art itself? (Remember our chat about Charles Manson and Joe Meek?)

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Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Beefheart is so much better this can pretty much be used as a litmus test to judge a person's understanding of music. It gets into an area so clear cut it's no longer a matter of opinion. The one main thing that gives Zappa serious credibility is his association with Beefheart. Zappa did some really cool stuff and I respect him but Beefheart must be honored with the deepest kind of reverence reserved for a very select few musicians. If you don't vote for Beefheart in the poll you should feel embarrassed. The difference is that profound.

How is it not opinion? Music is entirely subjective... and just because someone prefers one musician over another doesn't mean they're wrong... nor should they feel embarrassed.

By the way, I took the time to bold the comments that I felt didn't make any sense and completely took me by surprise...

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra · 08-11-2011, 12:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Jack Pat

Also, I thought you didn't care about the artist, but more about the art itself? (Remember our chat about Charles Manson and Joe Meek?)

True, but that's why I point it out, though. I feel a lot of people might unfairly lean towards Beefheart for the reason that he has a hipper stigma to him.

Beefheart has his advantages over Zappa, definitely. Especially in terms of having a lot more subtlety. Still feel that Beefheart hit his limitations after Lick my Decals Off. Frankly, his bag of tricks just ran out.

starrynight · 08-11-2011, 12:46 AM

Beefheart (just for Trout Mask Replica alone), Zappa had never appealed to me maybe as he can seem too flippant or looking to be weird just for the sake of it.

Guybrush · 08-11-2011, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Beefheart is so much better this can pretty much be used as a litmus test to judge a person's understanding of music. It gets into an area so clear cut it's no longer a matter of opinion. The one main thing that gives Zappa serious credibility is his association with Beefheart. Zappa did some really cool stuff and I respect him but Beefheart must be honored with the deepest kind of reverence reserved for a very select few musicians. If you don't vote for Beefheart in the poll you should feel embarrassed. The difference is that profound.

OccultHawk, I have to admit I didn't expect you to write such an incredibly douchy post. I was hoping you were joking, but unfortunately I don't detect any sarcasm, only arrogance and a real moronic opinion without any justification or reasoning behind it. The only irony I detect is that you you write anyone choosing Zappa in the poll should be embarassed. You should be embarassed, dude.

OccultHawk · 08-11-2011, 02:15 PM

It's like when people try to say Stevie Ray Vaughn is better than Hendrix. There's nothing there for me to respect or consider.

TockTockTock · 08-11-2011, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

It's like when people try to say Stevie Ray Vaughn is better than Hendrix. There's nothing there for me to respect or consider.

Except Zappa never tried to emulate Beefheart (like Vaughn did with Hendrix). Zappa did his own thing...

Guybrush · 08-11-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

It's like when people try to say Stevie Ray Vaughn is better than Hendrix. There's nothing there for me to respect or consider.

As if being one of the most competent, creative and exciting figures in rock history isn't good enough, you seem to have managed to miss the question posed in the first post.

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which one do you prefer: Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart?

And your reply is that everyone who votes for Zappa knows has less understanding of music and should be embarassed. So, I have a friend who's a professional musician. He adores Beefheart, but not as much as he loves Zappa. I guess you feel that makes him a little less professional and that he should feel embarassed?

JuuWorlds · 08-11-2011, 06:10 PM

I had to vote Zappa although i love Captain Beefhart
As far as the debate between the musicianship of Zappa and Beefhart go I'd say they are both pretty equal although i find Zappa's music more enjoyable

tehpathogen · 08-11-2011, 07:02 PM

Gonna Be completely truthful here and say I'm a huge fan of Zappa read a couple biographies, Favorite album would have to be the Mother's Fre4k out. But i don't know much of Beefhearts stuff, heard a couple colaborations with zappa. So when i get off work tonight i'm gonna go download his stuff. I'll let ya know what i think of his stuff when i dig in.

Howard the Duck · 08-12-2011, 05:36 AM

i just got most of Zappa's work with the Mothers

they're interesting, to say the least

View Poll Results: Choose one...
Frank Zappa	36	69.23%
Captain Beefheart	16	30.77%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

08-11-2011, 12:46 AM	#13 (permalink)
starrynight Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 937	Beefheart (just for Trout Mask Replica alone), Zappa had never appealed to me maybe as he can seem too flippant or looking to be weird just for the sake of it. __________________ non-cliquey member of every music forum I participate on

08-11-2011, 06:10 PM	#18 (permalink)
JuuWorlds Groupie Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor, Ontario Posts: 5	I had to vote Zappa although i love Captain Beefhart As far as the debate between the musicianship of Zappa and Beefhart go I'd say they are both pretty equal although i find Zappa's music more enjoyable __________________ Signature removed: Advertising is not permitted on Musicbanter.

08-11-2011, 02:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	It's like when people try to say Stevie Ray Vaughn is better than Hendrix. There's nothing there for me to respect or consider.

08-11-2011, 07:02 PM	#19 (permalink)
tehpathogen Groupie Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Minto, New Brunswick, Canada Posts: 29	Gonna Be completely truthful here and say I'm a huge fan of Zappa read a couple biographies, Favorite album would have to be the Mother's Fre4k out. But i don't know much of Beefhearts stuff, heard a couple colaborations with zappa. So when i get off work tonight i'm gonna go download his stuff. I'll let ya know what i think of his stuff when i dig in.