Music Banter

Music Banter (https://www.musicbanter.com/)
-   General Music (https://www.musicbanter.com/general-music/)
-   -   Has music become stagnant (stopped moving/evolving)? (https://www.musicbanter.com/general-music/66499-has-music-become-stagnant-stopped-moving-evolving.html)

midnight rain 12-08-2012 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1259983)
So glad you're back. :beer:

lol

Pursuingchange 12-08-2012 08:34 PM

Whoa whoa. Ok! Looks like I've got a lot to go back and read here:D There seems to be a very active community here of music lovers who have many different opinions. I think that's a good thing. So since there's been so much interest in my question, I'd like to share more of my opinion and see what people's takes on it are.

This is coming from someone who is a guitarist and aspiring rock musician. Lately I've been spending most of my time in pursuit of the next big thing. The new rock'n'roll I guess. I find my inspiration in the people/artists who I think "broke the mold" and were responsible for finding that one key sound and style that sparked revolutions. To me, there were a handful of these people. I might name The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Led Zeppelin, and Eddie Van Halen as pioneers of styles and sounds that made real changes in popular music (you could also say Kurt Cobain, but I don't really like him so that's why I didn't list him).

So in essence, I believe that if anyone were to make such a revolution, to cause real change and spark a new wave of music, they would have to break away from most of the stuff that is still in vogue now that has been in vogue for half a century. Mainly in rock music. As much as I love the electric guitar, its hard to deny the statement that the electric guitar has pretty much reahed the end of its creative possibilities. Sure, there are still technically new things that could be done with the guitar, but at this point anything more extreme or amazing than what has already been done would just be overkill and would lose all its appeal. Do you kind of undertand what I mean? I think its time a new instrument took over.

The other day I was driving to work and I turned on the radio. It was on tye local rock station that played everything from modern to classic rock. I remember Shinedown came on, and then after that it was Judas Priest. And for the first few seconds of Judas Priest's intro I was thinking "is this still Shinedown? Is this a new song from them?" and then the singing came in and I realized it was an old song by Judas Priest. But even after I ha realized it was Priest, I sat there thinking of how there is virtually no difference between today's rock and the rock of the yesteryear. It uses that same formula. Distorted guitars, riffs, powerful vocals etc... Then Seether came on, and AC/DC after that, and I began to realize just how little variation there really is between different brands of rock and how it is delivered and performed, and also the instrumentation. The only thing I will say on the flip side of this is that for the most part, older rock bands seemed to all have their own distinct sound, whereas its sometimes hard to distinguish between newer bands.

So what I'm getting at is that I believe that nothing TRULY new has been created in a long time. To me, the last guitar innovation came from Eddie Van Halen. Since then the guitar has kind of stagnated. Once grunge came around, the guitar kind of went downhill. Then we started getting all these watered-down alternative bands and artists and kickass/dynamic music kind of fell to the side, and thus, we have the uninspiring popular music world we have today.

That's just my opinion.

Janszoon 12-08-2012 08:41 PM

So it's not really so much music you're talking about as rock guitar specifically.

Pursuingchange 12-08-2012 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1260050)
So it's not really so much music you're talking about as rock guitar specifically.

Perhaps. I'm not sure. That's why I'm here. I'm confused by my own thoughts LOL. The way I rationalize it is, if rock music and guitar hasn't changed in years, then I don't see how much else has really changed. Not much IMO. Were still rehashing the same melody lines and the same approaches. To me, rock has always been THE genre. The one that comes up with all the big innovations. I think its because rock bands historically have always been boundary-pushers. But I just don't see that attitude anymore in today's music as a whole. I just don't see young John Lennons or EVH's anymore. Maybe its because the true innivators are less popular now. But if they're are not very popular, then I suppose that means that they weren't so innovative right? Because I would excpect someone who is innovative to be a household subject and highly mimicked.

midnight rain 12-08-2012 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260051)
The way I rationalize it is, if rock music and guitar hasn't changed in years, then I don't see how much else has really changed. Not much IMO. Were still rehashing the same melody lines and the same approaches. To me, rock has always been THE genre. The one that comes up with all the big innovations. I think its because rock bands historically have always been boundary-pushers.

Wat, lol.

Yeah definitely stick around bro, I think your lack of exposure to other cultures and their music has given you a bit of a slant towards rock music. If you stick around, you'll probably look back at what you said and realize how ridiculous it sounds. No offense intended by any of this, I just think you won't feel the same if you come to appreciate other genres on their own merits.

Pursuingchange 12-08-2012 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1260052)
Wat, lol.

Yeah definitely stick around bro, I think your lack of exposure to other cultures and their music has given you a bit of a slant towards rock music. If you stick around, you'll probably look back at what you said and realize how ridiculous it sounds. No offense intended by any of this, I just think you won't feel the same if you come to appreciate other genres on their own merits.

Thanks. But I am very well aware and versed on almost any other style you can think of. I've already been there to the area of thought your talking about. I've already gravitated back to my original position. I just have a passion for rock music.

That said, I DO belive my notion about music hitting a wall innovation-wise is pretty accurate. In fact, there are numerous subtle things I have figured out about music (and people's perceptions of music) that I find hard to explain. Every time I attempt to explain it, people consider it "ridiculous" as you just stated. That's why I'm not shocked to see some of the reactions on here. Most people just lack some fundamental understandings that I have. Not trying to sound elitist or self-righteous, but I DO want to defend my position.

Pursuingchange 12-08-2012 09:22 PM

To the people who were arguing about the word 'evolve', please quit. The important thing is that you understood what I meant.

Janszoon 12-08-2012 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260056)
To the people who were arguing about the word 'evolve', please quit. The important thing is that you understood what I meant.

What did you mean?

Pursuingchange 12-08-2012 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1260057)
What did you mean?

Lol

Pursuingchange 12-08-2012 09:45 PM

I'm glad the people here are funny. Makes things so much funner.

Janszoon 12-08-2012 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260064)
Lol

It was a serious question. I'm still unclear what you mean.

midnight rain 12-08-2012 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260064)
Lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260066)
Lol. Some funny people here. I like that!

I see a budding future for you here.

Pursuingchange 12-08-2012 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1260067)
It was a serious question. I'm still unclear what you mean.

Ok ok. I'll restate my initial question. What I meant to ask was, has music stopped making large innovations? Has music hit a wall creatively? Do you think music, in its current form has reached the end of its creative possibilities? Have you seen large innovations that took the world by storm since Kurt Cobain popularized alternative, or since EVH popularized that style of guitar playing? I think its a valid question and I'm looking for REAL, INFORMED, NO-NONSENSE answers.

Janszoon 12-08-2012 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260084)
Ok ok. I'll restate my initial question. What I meant to ask was, has music stopped making large innovations? Has music hit a wall creatively? Do you think music, in its current form has reached the end of its creative possibilities?

No, no, and no. Though, historically I don't know how many innovations I'd describe as "large", I certainly don't see a decrease in innovation overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260084)
Have you seen large innovations that took the world by storm since Kurt Cobain popularized alternative, or since EVH popularized that style of guitar playing?

Not sure how to answer this since I don't agree with the assumptions you're making. Kurt Cobain didn't single-handedly popularize alternative, and even if he had, I don't see how simply popularizing something that already exists is particularly innovative. As far as Eddie Van Halen goes: He was certainly influential, but is his guitar style really a "large innovation"? I'd say not really.

TheBig3 12-08-2012 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1259878)
But "evolving" doesn't it mean it's getting better, it just means it's changing over time. To say it's "de-evolving" is kind of meaningless.

Unless it means its changing to a permutation its already experienced.

Neapolitan 12-08-2012 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260084)
Ok ok. I'll restate my initial question. What I meant to ask was, has music stopped making large innovations? Has music hit a wall creatively? Do you think music, in its current form has reached the end of its creative possibilities? Have you seen large innovations that took the world by storm since Kurt Cobain popularized alternative, or since EVH popularized that style of guitar playing? I think its a valid question and I'm looking for REAL, INFORMED, NO-NONSENSE answers.

The idea of what is an important "Innovation" is generally only relevant to a certain demographic during a certain time period.

Take the approach of Rock docs for instance, a lot of them just showcases one particulat person, band or event, but it doesn't tell the whole story. There is a certain timeline and outline that is accepted and anything that falls outside of that isn't mentioned. Saying somthing like only one guitar player e.g. Kurt Cobain or Eddie Van Halen started it all and done it all is "causal reductionism." They have their place in music history, I don't think their contributions should be overblown but then again I don't think they should be underestimated either.

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1260091)
No, no, and no. Though, historically I don't know how many innovations I'd describe as "large", I certainly don't see a decrease in innovation overall.


Not sure how to answer this since I don't agree with the assumptions you're making. Kurt Cobain didn't single-handedly popularize alternative, and even if he had, I don't see how simply popularizing something that already exists is particularly innovative. As far as Eddie Van Halen goes: He was certainly influential, but is his guitar style really a "large innovation"? I'd say not really.

You and I are talking on two totally different levels. You are seeming to break everything down to its most basic (trivial) components and are not seeing it the way I'm seeing it. Sure, technically Eddies Van Halen's guitar thing was nothing 'new' in every sense of the word. Just as Michael Jackson's dancing was technically nothing new, I think everyone here knows that. But it was the style, the sound, the way they did it. They owned it. It sparked new energy on many different levels. EVH's guitar style pretty much set the entire stage of what rock became after that. There are only a few of those people throughout history who have "it" factor to cause true innovation.

Please don't pick apart what I just said man and try to come up with some cunning and witty rebuttal to it just for the sake of sounding smart like everyone else who uses the internet nowadays does. They'll sit there at their computer and think to themselves "what's a good way to word this that will make me seem so intelligent?" because trust me, that's how you've come off to me so far. I think you know full well what I'm saying here about the music thing anyway.

Urban Hat€monger ? 12-09-2012 05:13 AM

In the past decade Dizzee Rascal bought an underground movement to the mainstream and spawned loads of imitators just as much as you're giving Kurt Cobain & Eddie Van Halen credit for, so why are you not giving him any credit ?

There's something in the past 10 years for you that 'Broke the mould'.

mr dave 12-09-2012 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1259878)
To say it's "de-evolving" is kind of meaningless.

I believe these guys have a couple of words for you on the whole concept of de-evolution :p:

http://www.musicomh.com/music/gigs/gigs_images/devo.jpg

Janszoon 12-09-2012 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260193)
You and I are talking on two totally different levels. You are seeming to break everything down to its most basic (trivial) components and are not seeing it the way I'm seeing it. Sure, technically Eddies Van Halen's guitar thing was nothing 'new' in every sense of the word. Just as Michael Jackson's dancing was technically nothing new, I think everyone here knows that. But it was the style, the sound, the way they did it. They owned it. It sparked new energy on many different levels. EVH's guitar style pretty much set the entire stage of what rock became after that. There are only a few of those people throughout history who have "it" factor to cause true innovation.

Please don't pick apart what I just said man and try to come up with some cunning and witty rebuttal to it just for the sake of sounding smart like everyone else who uses the internet nowadays does. They'll sit there at their computer and think to themselves "what's a good way to word this that will make me seem so intelligent?" because trust me, that's how you've come off to me so far. I think you know full well what I'm saying here about the music thing anyway.

Yeah, you're bitching that things aren't as good as they used to be and expecting people to just agree with you. Problem is you aren't making the case very well and apparently get upset when someone responds to the examples you're trying to use.

Janszoon 12-09-2012 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr dave (Post 1260201)
I believe these guys have a couple of words for you on the whole concept of de-evolution :p:

http://www.musicomh.com/music/gigs/gigs_images/devo.jpg

:laughing:

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 01:50 PM

Look man, don't be contrary. The reason I asked you not to think of some witty rebuttal is because thats all people use the internet for these days. People will turn something that is not an argument into one so they can refute and make themselves sound smart. That's exactly what you are doing. Like I said, I think you know I'm talking about.

EVH and Kurt Cobain are not the only innovators. They are just two of the few I listed. I never had any malice when I created this thread, but somehow I knew that There would be a couple of people on here who find an argument here and try to pick it alart untill the relevance is gone, and then be all smartass about it. What I'm trying to say is very simple. It doesn't take a lot of thinking to understand. I don't think there are as many innovators in this time. It might be because music in general is hard to innovate in this time, or lack of new musical avenues and ideas to explore. I cited the people who I believed were true innovators in history. There are more than what I listed, but those few are ones that really stand out to me. Plus, how can you say that I'm only focusing on rock guitar when I clearly stated Michael Jackson and dancing? Quit picking apart what I'm saying and be a part of the real conversation man. There's no arguments going on here.

Janszoon 12-09-2012 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260355)
Plus, how can you say that I'm only focusing on rock guitar when I clearly stated Michael Jackson and dancing?

Um... because I made that comment before you said anything about Michael Jackson.

Urban Hat€monger ? 12-09-2012 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260355)
Look man, don't be contrary. The reason I asked you not to think of some witty rebuttal is because thats all people use the internet for these days. People will turn something that is not an argument into one so they can refute and make themselves sound smart. That's exactly what you are doing. Like I said, I think you know I'm talking about.

EVH and Kurt Cobain are not the only innovators. They are just two of the few I listed. I never had any malice when I created this thread, but somehow I knew that There would be a couple of people on here who find an argument here and try to pick it alart untill the relevance is gone, and then be all smartass about it. What I'm trying to say is very simple. It doesn't take a lot of thinking to understand. I don't think there are as many innovators in this time. It might be because music in general is hard to innovate in this time, or lack of new musical avenues and ideas to explore. I cited the people who I believed were true innovators in history. There are more than what I listed, but those few are ones that really stand out to me. Plus, how can you say that I'm only focusing on rock guitar when I clearly stated Michael Jackson and dancing? Quit picking apart what I'm saying and be a part of the real conversation man. There's no arguments going on here.

I just gave you an example of an innovator in the last 10 years and you totally ignored it.

Janszoon 12-09-2012 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger ? (Post 1260367)
I just gave you an example of an innovator in the last 10 years and you totally ignored it.

I'm pretty sure he's not actually interested in having a conversation with anyone.

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 05:14 PM

Whatever. I can see that you guys will find an argument regardless if there is one or not. Michael Jackson was one of the first people I mentioned.

And about the innovation you mentioned. I've never even heard of that artist. Apparently not much of an innovation huh? I bet I could go around to just about everyone at my work, around my neighborhood, and around town, and they've probably never heard of Dizee Rascal. People who make true innovations should be well-known even to people who don't actively explore new music. The artists I mentioned affected music on a grand scale. Sure, the elements of their style existed before them, but they were the people who put it all together and put it into motion on a large scale. It takes a true innovator to do that. That's all I'm saying.

Urban Hat€monger ? 12-09-2012 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260453)

And about the innovation you mentioned. I've never even heard of that artist. Apparently not much of an innovation huh? I bet I could go around to just about everyone at my work, around my neighborhood, and around town, and they've probably never heard of Dizee Rascal. People who make true innovations should be well-known even to people who don't actively explore new music.

He's a multi platinum selling artist in Europe, so all I can suggest is you're not even remotely interested in looking for anything innovative and you're probably sitting on your backside moaning about how music wasn't as good as it was in the good old days without even bothering to look for it.

I tried to debate this seriously with you, so far you've shown me you're nothing more than a total arse. So with that I'll be leaving this thread now and bid you goodbye and hope you're happy playing those first 6 Van Halen records for the rest of your life.

Rjinn 12-09-2012 09:17 PM

Music has never stopped evolving. You just got to keep walking through different crossroads if you're open-minded enough.

It's usually the case that people tend to have rigid ideas and or stuck in some past generation style to progress taste themselves.

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 10:06 PM

:(

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger ? (Post 1260500)
He's a multi platinum selling artist in Europe, so all I can suggest is you're not even remotely interested in looking for anything innovative and you're probably sitting on your backside moaning about how music wasn't as good as it was in the good old days without even bothering to look for it.

I tried to debate this seriously with you, so far you've shown me you're nothing more than a total arse. So with that I'll be leaving this thread now and bid you goodbye and hope you're happy playing those first 6 Van Halen records for the rest of your life.

Look you *******, screw you! Ok!? I'm not even a very big fan of Van Halen, it was just a friggin' example, ok!? Just shut up. Your not that damn smart.

Urban Hat€monger ? 12-09-2012 10:15 PM

I might not be that smart but I still proved you wrong.

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rjinn (Post 1260528)
Music has never stopped evolving. You just got to keep walking through different crossroads if you're open-minded enough.

It's usually the case that people tend to have rigid ideas and or stuck in some past generation style to progress taste themselves.

Look dude, I'm as open-minded as it gets. But with this topic, its kind of black or white. There's nothing rigid about my thinking. Although, I can tend to be picky sometimes. I have my own style as everyone else does. I have certain preferences. I don't see anything wrong with that. There are styles of music I just flat out don't like. I'll be honest. It doesn't mean I'm rigid. Just the fact that I'm looking for new innovative sounds and approaches suggests that I'm not rigid, but open-minded.

Janszoon 12-09-2012 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260569)
Look dude, I'm as open-minded as it gets. But with this topic, its kind of black or white. There's nothing rigid about my thinking. Although, I can tend to be picky sometimes. I have my own style as everyone else does. I have certain preferences. I don't see anything wrong with that. There are styles of music I just flat out don't like. I'll be honest. It doesn't mean I'm rigid. Just the fact that I'm looking for new innovative sounds and approaches suggests that I'm not rigid, but open-minded.

Yeah, you seem really open-minded.

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger ? (Post 1260568)
I might not be that smart but I still proved you wrong.

I didn't say you were not smart. I said you were not THAT smart (as smart as your trying to sound). And you didn't prove me wrong. How could you? I didn't pose an argument in the first place. If anything I proved YOU wrong. You can't really deny what I just said.

Go out and ask 10 random people if tey know EVH. at least 8 of 10 will say yes. Then go ask 10 random people the same question about Dizee Rascal and about 1 of 10 may possibly know him. True innovators don't usually go unheard of. They are usually houshold.

Bloozcrooz 12-09-2012 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260564)
Look you *******, screw you! Ok!? I'm not even a very big fan of Van Halen, it was just a friggin' example, ok!? Just shut up. Your not that damn smart.

Gotta sig this shiznit :laughing:

Janszoon 12-09-2012 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260571)
I didn't say you were not smart. I said you were not THAT smart (as smart as your trying to sound). And you didn't prove me wrong. How could you? I didn't pose an argument in the first place. If anything I proved YOU wrong. You can't really deny what I just said.

Go out and ask 10 random people if tey know EVH. at least 8 of 10 will say yes. Then go ask 10 random people the same question about Dizee Rascal and about 1 of 10 may possibly know him. True innovators don't usually go unheard of. They are usually houshold.

10 random people in which country?

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1260570)
Yeah, you seem really open-minded.

Being sarcastic this time, or serious?

midnight rain 12-09-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260564)
Look you *******, screw you! Ok!? I'm not even a very big fan of Van Halen, it was just a friggin' example, ok!? Just shut up. Your not that damn smart.

Get on your lithium and then we can have a reasonable discussion. :wave:

Pursuingchange 12-09-2012 10:25 PM

Bye

Urban Hat€monger ? 12-09-2012 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pursuingchange (Post 1260571)
I didn't say you were not smart. I said you were not THAT smart (as smart as your trying to sound). And you didn't prove me wrong. How could you? I didn't pose an argument in the first place. If anything I proved YOU wrong. You can't really deny what I just said.

Go out and ask 10 random people if tey know EVH. at least 8 of 10 will say yes. Then go ask 10 random people the same question about Dizee Rascal and about 1 of 10 may possibly know him. True innovators don't usually go unheard of. They are usually houshold.

I just gave you a recent example of a multi platinum selling artist that launched a new genre of music.

Now if you were serious about genuinely finding new music you could have said 'Thanks for the tip, I might check him out'
But instead you decided to dismiss it out of hand and ramble on about how he's not a household name wherever you are so therefore his acheivements are meaningless and you then went on to bitch about people on the internet.

So please tell me how I'm supposed to take your reply seriously.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:02 PM.


© 2003-2024 Advameg, Inc.