What is music, what is not?

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

I was not dissing you. I said your opinion was a bad one and then said why I believe so. If I said turtlenecks aren't pieces of clothing, because well I don't wear turtlenecks, would you respect my opinion? You shouldn't. We can disagree on how much we like turtlenecks all we want, but they are clothes, regardless of what I say/think they are. The definition of music may have room for interpretation, but how do you not see that you saying "grindcore isn't music" is insulting to fans of it? Saying "it's my opinion" does not mean we cant criticize it.

Define "dissing". Calling someones opinion '****ty' would be the equivalent of being dissed around where I come from, and saying you're not 'dissing' someone when you clearly did is called back pedaling. I can understand what you were talking about, ie TH's dislike or defining a genre as not music, but how can one person's opinion be a bad opinion? Based on what YOU perceive? Your opinion of his opinion relies solely on your personal perception of the matter. It is NOT fact, it is OPINION.

Ninetales · 10-13-2014, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Define "dissing". Calling someones opinion '****ty' would be the equivalent of being dissed around where I come from, and saying you're not 'dissing' someone when you clearly did is called back pedaling. I can understand what you were talking about, ie TH's dislike or defining a genre as not music, but how can one person's opinion be a bad opinion? Based on what YOU perceive? Your opinion of his opinion relies solely on your personal perception of the matter. It is NOT fact, it is OPINION.

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

- Douglas Adams

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

- Douglas Adams

Holy side stepping the issue Batman.

Ninetales · 10-13-2014, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Holy side stepping the issue Batman.

I had no idea that using the word shitty would be the one thing, in all that ive said here, that sticks.

EDIT: for the record: feel free to call my opinions shitty. just back it up with something meaningful.

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

I had no idea that using the word shitty would be the one thing, in all that ive said here, that sticks.

Yeah, that was a bit rude, and condescending... IMHO.

Ninetales · 10-13-2014, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Yeah, that was a bit rude, and condescending... IMHO.

And I think arbitrarily calling Grindcore not music is rude and condescending.

Plankton · 10-13-2014, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

And I think arbitrarily calling Grindcore not music is rude and condescending.

Well, there's your opinion then.

Based on what? The fact that you need to hang on to your own personal belief that what you define as music must be defended and avenged, otherwise your way of thinking is flawed, thereby lowering your self worth?

I can see that.

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

And I think arbitrarily calling Grindcore not music is rude and condescending.

To me, to me. Not to everyone. I'm not saying nobody should listen to grindcore, it's not music. I'm saying that I, personally, do not consider it music. I don't expect or ask for my belief to be supported by anyone else, but I do expect to be able to hold it. Are we suddenly in a fascist dictatorship where I'm not allowed express my opinion?

And ftr I would never call anyone's opinion ****ty. It's the worst kind of rudeness in my opinion. Also, no, I took your other points but I wanted to make it clear I was very upset with your offhand comment directed at me, and then defended by you, to a degree.

I also think we've derailed the thread long enough, so if you don't see anything wrong with what you've said I can't change your mind. Just leave me to have and express my opinions without calling me/them names and we'll be fine.

Trollheart · 10-13-2014, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Define "dissing". Calling someones opinion '****ty' would be the equivalent of being dissed around where I come from, and saying you're not 'dissing' someone when you clearly did is called back pedaling. I can understand what you were talking about, ie TH's dislike or defining a genre as not music, but how can one person's opinion be a bad opinion? Based on what YOU perceive? Your opinion of his opinion relies solely on your personal perception of the matter. It is NOT fact, it is OPINION.

What I was saying. I'm not saying you should accept that my opinion is right, any more than I accept yours, but you have to accept it as an opinion. It is not ****ty just because you say it is --- and perhaps Frown agrees, though maybe I'm being too harsh there. It's a bit disingenuous to use the sweaters analogy: obviously, these are physical items and their existence and categorisation as what they are can no more be denied than you can deny the sky is, you know, way up there or that the moon shines at night. But music is not a physical thing. You can't, to quote Johnny Cash, see it with your eyes (and I don't mean musical notation) or hold it in your hands: you can see/hold the physical manifestations of it (songs, tunes, guitars, piano etc) but not music as a physical entity.

I'm not denying the presence of music, and I'm not saying grindcore is not music. The point you seem to be gleefully ignoring is that I'm saying I don't see it as music. It does not qualify as music to me. If I say baseball's a stupid sport, I don't see it as sport at all, I'm not denying that it IS a sport, just that it doesn't qualify or satisfy the admittedly somewhat arbitrary criteria I have set for myself to recognise it as such. It would be just as silly for you to say "but baseball is a sport. You can't deny that" if I were to say "I don't see baseball as a sport" as it is for you to be picking apart my opinion as if it has no merit or value, just because it happens not to coincide with yours.

Whether you like it or not, my opinion is mine and once again I say you have no call to be calling it ****ty, and then try to pretend you were not dissing it, which as Plankton says you clearly were. At least have the courage of your convictions and admit that was what you were doing. I have to say, I'm losing more respect for you with every post you make on this. You really should just say sorry and leave it at that; I would.

We can agree to disagree, but rudeness is rudeness and is something I will not tolerate or accept, from anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

- Douglas Adams

Contextualise please. Adams was a satirist, and this could just as easily be a piece of misdirection, not meant literally. Even if it is, so what? What does that prove? You may as well say "All men are created equal, but some are created more equal than others".

As in all things, one man or woman's opinion does not necessarily make that statement any more true or false, or valid.

DwnWthVwls · 10-13-2014, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

If I say baseball's a stupid sport, I don't see it as sport at all, I'm not denying that it IS a sport, just that it doesn't qualify or satisfy the admittedly somewhat arbitrary criteria I have set for myself to recognise it as such. It would be just as silly for you to say "but baseball is a sport. You can't deny that" if I were to say "I don't see baseball as a sport" as it is for you to be picking apart my opinion as if it has no merit or value, just because it happens not to coincide with yours.

I have a problem with this analogy/argument. Your opinion that it is not a sport IS denial of it being a sport. You can't have it both ways, they are direct contradictions. Also, it is a sport by definition so just because you decide to claim you have an opinion doesn't mean it can't be wrong just because you're claiming it to be an opinion. I've had this discussion with Soulflower before when we were butting heads.

The problem with music is that there is no clear cut definition as you can witness by the entire discussion leading up to this point.