No Talking heads? that's the first band i think of when i think of New wave.

I understand the concept of this thread but i don't quite fully agree with it because as Frown pointed out with the internet nowadays making music so accessible all that music from those past musical movements are still keeping that movement alive in a way cause there is always a little sub culture behind it that won't let it die and there's always kids from a new generation that get into it too.

Though you can trace the rise and fall of musical genres through the eyes of mainstream music and through their decades most of those musical movements either evolved into another genre or are being kept alive through music sub cultures which can consist of thousands of ppl.

I have a question for you William.
Which genre of music do you think defines the 2010 decade so far?

ever since this thing called the Internet musical genres will never die because they have all been categorized stored and saved : )

Sometimes I think certain genres like Pop need to just die a miserable death, but then I take that thought back because Pop offers melody galore, among other things. I absolutely loath the majority of Pop music around now, copy cat and so much of it is so contrived...

But I don't think any specific genre will actually cease to exist, I think there will be an audience for pretty much any of it as long as music exists. I do contest to the fact that genres do seem to peek, and then have a significant decline in popularity, but never actually going away. Generations of people being ushered in play part in that, not every generation will favor the same genre the same way as the generation before them.

As it happens, I have a whole journal dedicated to the history of prog rock and prog metal, so I can do that. I'll come back to you on it.

Sorry to niggle again, but U2 were also never new wave; I think they are about as far from that as could be. They're a simple rock band. Bangles I wouldn't be too sure about but not as much as U2. Not looking for an argument, but I think you got that one wrong...

Again, not trying to be smart, but do you mean "concede"? Cos otherwise that sentence is very confusing. Or do you mean "I contest", in which case then you're arguing against the claim?

Concede.

Because I think there's enough there to support the claim.

Well I will have to check that out, perhaps I will actually find a prog rock song I like.

Very well then, I tend to lump that whole movement under new wave, but I shall state that they are alternative rock/post punk, that better.

I never stated that they die, but they do enter into a decline where they become a niche genre of music for a smaller fanbase.

The Roman Empire is gone but Italy is still one of the world's most powerful economies today. Jazz doesn't dominate the pop charts & music in general like it did in the 50's but it still has a large following.

I kind of though that was what you meant. Sorry to be picky but I wasn't quite sure and the wording did kind of give the opposite view.
I'm sure you will. It's a pretty varied genre, from Captain Beefheart and Zappa right up to bands like Spock's Beard and Pendragon.
I just remember growing up in Dublin as U2 came on the scene, and they were never really identified with any particular movement or genre, nor I believe identified themselves as one.

Classical music probably peaked in popularity in the late 1800's-early 1900's, overthrown by jazz in the 20's. In this case it was an extremely long ascent with an extremely long descent, spanning centuries. However, if you divide it into its sub-genres (Renaissance, Baroque, High Classical, Romantic, Modern) there are clear ascents, peaks and descents.

I'd say jazz's peak was probably in the early 50's, especially if you consider swing to be a kind of jazz.

Something not mentioned is that folk music probably peaked in popularity in the early-mid 60's. Like a lot of other genres it was subsumed by another genre (in this case rock, which created the sub-genre "folk-rock"), which more often than not is the beginning of the end of a genre's peak popularity. One could also argue that rap being integrated into other genres in the past 20 years or so is a sign that rap has peaked as well.

I think what we might call "generic pop" is going to be around for a very long time, in part because it's such a broad and flexible genre, and thus, because it has such a broad appeal. I think it's lifeline might end up being like Classical music, with a lifespan measured in centuries.

A lot of fans consider Hip-Hop and Rap to be two similar but different types of music, notice how in my previous posts I differentiate between a rapper and an emcee, as a rapper belongs to rap music and the later respective to Hip-Hop. So when speaking on the birth and death of Hip-Hop I'd say it's history is able to be cataloged from start to finish with exceptions as I had said before of the music still coming out in much smaller waves.

As for Rap music I'd say it's currently in it's own golden era or at least it hasn't died yet, to distinguish them in terms of genres it is fairly easy.

Hip-Hop:
-more focused on including many more cultural element's of Hip-Hop within' the music (Emcees, B-Boys, Deejays, Street Artists, Beat Boxing, etc)
-more focused on spreading a message or showing off emceeing prowess

Rap:
-more commercial
-more focused on the common stereotypes put forth in Hip-Hop (Money, Women, Drugs, less lyricism, etc.)

There is also a heavy difference in production and overall style but I find that much harder to describe as it is easier to have an ear for it.

That's why it becomes much easier to discuss the genre when you divide it into two genres, as the world of music containing rapping has become to diverse and expansive it's hard to tell whether a song is Rap or Pop these days, but when categorizing Hip-Hop there is enough substance needed that you can take a song with rapping in it and divide it into whether or not it is Hip-Hop music vs. anything else ranging from Rap, Pop, Trap, etc. I myself can discuss the history of Hip-Hop for hours but I'm hardly varied in knowledge of Rap music. I hate to sound pretentious but I consider myself an expert in Hip-Hop music and history from roughly 79-98 and it's a huge passion of mine and has been for quite some time.

To give examples of how many have split the genre I can use artists.
Hip-Hop vs Rap is:
Rakim vs. Drake
Gang Starr vs. Childish Gambino
De La Soul vs. Tyga
Del The Funky Homosapien vs. Fetty Wap

of course the lines can become increasingly blurred when it comes to Gangsta Rap but the history there is so expansive and the style so unique I could go as far to consider it a genre on it's own.

That's what people who don't listen to don't understand is how wildly different the music can be when the only similarity is rhyming words together. How someone can listen to a group like EPMD and then attempt to categorize them within' the same genre as an artist like Lil' Jon is beyond me.

Keep in mind this isn't me trying to split Hip-Hop and Rap into two genres between music I think is good and music I don't like it's rather how I view the music truly is categorized, there are plenty of acts I love I'd put into the rap genre (i.e. 2 Live Crew) and vice versa. Although there is an argument for every artist for both categories I suppose, but generally one fits better than the other.

I caught you red-handed in the "What Are You Listening To?" thread, playing some of the most cookie cutter melodic metalcore I've ever heard, some sub-Bullet for My Valentine ****, and now u do dis? Dude...

I said some. Pop sensibility is apparent in most genres. What you're doing here is attempting to take what I said, and make it mean something different than my intended point. I didn't say I haven't or don't listen to some of that cookie cutter crud, Beartooth is not the worst of what is out there as far as music that is stuck and unoriginal. I just said I loath most of it, which leaves room for some of it to slip by and not entirely gut me.

Besides. You listen to Ke$ha, who you claim has some great music, but all I hear is a chick that tries too hard and isn't any better than Britney Spears in my book.

I ****ing love Britney Spears.

Get that crap outta here!

That song is infinitely better than your little Beartooth video. That **** isn't a tenth of the earworm that "Break the Ice" is.

I'm not a Pop fan so not a big surprise that I don't agree with that. Maybe if I actually tried listening to Pop and not go in to it with the mindset that I'm going to be bored by subject matter and sounds raped to the nth degree by these poptarts without an ounce of creativity or vision, I could find something I liked and not care about those things, because those things are what Pop is in my book.

Start with Madonna.

Heard all of those songs already and a handful of others, she's one Pop artist I think is pretty talented and don't turn my nose up to if I hear a song of hers, however when you talk about her new stuff...wtf happened?

Can I just say that I don't think that there's no talent in the Pop industry, because there is and I've heard it, I still hear it now and then these days too. I'm just so tired of Pop artist these days playing it safe, putting out albums they know will sell because it markets a sound that's ridiculously popular, but they're albums that are so contrived or mundane, and that's two big issues for me with Pop in general.

You know those bands I listen to Batty that you detest? I listen to them because I hear things from them that I can appreciate, like honest music, or music that has something to say, rather than music that talks at you because people want to hear a song that is upbeat or bubbly, or talks about nothing really meaningful, and you know I've always had a pet peeve with any song from any nameable genre that really has nothing to say, it's just words with no particular meaning with backing music that's just there to well, be there. I haven't been able to move passed that fact in regard to Pop, the music says nothing to me, how many songs do I have to hear that talks about nail polish, hair, women being empowered, so on and so forth before a Pop artist finally comes along and has things to say and doesn't pander to the popular crowd to play it safe?

Give me someone new, not Ke$ha, that you think I could get in to Batty. I don't care if it's bubbly, materialistic sh*t, just hit me with some Pop recs from this current generation, I've heard a lot of the old stuff already.

I don't know if this would be considered pop, but I found it really quite excellent. Irish, too! :)


Also I think we'd most of us agree that Chvrches is some current pop we can all get behind?

I actually didn't mind that, liked her voice, catchy too. I could listen to more like this maybe, if it were varied enough and wasn't just one thing the entire album through.

Chvrches is a group I haven't really heard anything by, I just know who they are. Suppose I'll YouTube them now...

The video from that last song was from her American Life album, which had the unfortunate luck to be released just before 9/11, so there was a backlash that's pretty much kept her muzzled by her record company ever since, making her just a voice played over dance beats. The album right after that, Confessions on the Dance Floor was pretty awesome, but it didn't have a whole lot of personality from Madonna.

First of all, pop isn't necessarily made better by having something to say, since it's there to be catchy, and not necessarily as an extension of the artist's inner voice. Lady GaGa's first album was just a bunch of songs about her being a vapid party girl, built entirely around club dance beats, but it's still superior to her other two albums. Partially because she doesn't really have anything to say, and is just buying into her own hype at the expense of the simple, dance pop that made her famous.

And two, I'm very pick-and-choose about my modern pop -- not because it's contrived or anything, but a lot of it just isn't as catchy as pop should be -- but...



Don't know why this is listed as a Jessie J song, as it's from Arianne Grande's album.



Great singles, but her albums aren't entirely consistent.







Note: These are all British artists, so I'm thinking that American pop is currently inferior to the sounds from across the pond.

Well, Chvrches is something I'm really digging, sort of a retro pop outfit. Nonetheless I'm not finding myself irritated by tried and tired themes or predictability.

Batty. I understand what Pop is meant to look, sound, be portrayed as. I know the subject matter isn't meant to really be something that has a point behind it, lyrically I find that the words are jumbled together in not a random order, but not particularly in any fashion either, they're just there and I'd even call the lyrics a filler to be honest, as the music is the forefront or how it sounds is.

But just because Pop doesn't exist to have something to say, I don't get why a Pop artists wouldn't want to be known for the subject matter of their music being something meaningful, record sales and being relevant just mean more? It boggles my mind, because it's almost something I feel betrays the point of making music to begin with, like as an outlet for your inner voice and to express yourself with, but to be content with what they doing being mundane or vapid, it just goes to show me that maybe they take music for granted. Music is important for me to the point that I feel I'd not even want to be here if it never existed, so when an artists just pumps out music for the f*ck of it, they just want the fame and money, notoriety, it gets my blood boiling because it shows no appreciation or respect for music.

You're not the only one that is picky with music. Contrary to what you think by consequence of the music I have shared thus far here (you've liked a fair amount of it, but there's a lot you detested too) the music I gravitate toward is much more grounded around really actually being good. Beartooth is not an example of the music I actually listen to every day. Take me at my word on that.

In regard to those videos you posted...

The first one, by Neon Hitch, was horrid, sorry. She sang like she was wanting to sound like Britney Spears, or her voice just sounds like that. Either way I didn't like it.

The second one, that Jessie J collaboration, I've heard it over and over at work. It isn't a song I'd say that I hate, but I just don't think it's that good either.

Natalia Kills was probably the best of what you posted. I can't say she is anything special, and frankly none of what you posted sounded much different than Pop in the USA. Very similar or what you posted was a poor representation of Pop from over seas.

Well, like you and I have already said, you can't judge a genre by the standards you would another genre. I look to metal for great riffs and/or aggression, but I would look for that with an artist like Johnny Cash or Townes Van Zandt.

You may very well already be aware of them, but for melodic metalcore that I actually respect, Unearth is my goto band.




I think you should delve into some pre-00s metalcore, as it's vastly superior to the later bands. A lot different sounding, since it was a movement coming from hardcore and post-hardcore bands rather than metal ones.





Deadguy - Doom Patrol











These are more like proto-metalcore/hardcore bands.

Ringworm - The Sickness


Integrity - Heaven's Final War


I don't mean they're better creatively, just that I find them to be catchier pop songs than anything I'm hearing from American pop artists.

If you want a more creative pop artists, then I'd suggest M.I.A.. She's got a sound somewhere in-between pop, rap, club music, and some kind of bastard combo of tribal beats. Can't really compare her to anything else going on TBH.

There's been times that I have judged another genre based on the standards of another I view as superior, but yeah I've said that it shouldn't be done. Frustration toward artists seeming to focus less on creativity or standing out drives my impulse to judge that way.

What I've listened to of pre 00's Metalcore, and I'll be honest that there hasn't been a lot of it and it came out at a time that I wouldn't gravitate all that much toward your more aggressive vocals as well, at one point of my musical evolution, I looked down on bands that had vocalists that screamed or growled throughout an album, because melody is such an important thing for me in the music that I like. Obviously now it isn't so much the case, the whole not liking or favoring vocals like that, because there's Trivium, Lamb of God, August Burns Red, Unearth, Protest The Hero, Paradise Lost, Whitechapel, I listen to all of those bands now and 15 or more years ago I wouldn't have given them the time of day, but I was a lot more ignorant or unaware of how good the music could actually be too.

I listen to Unearth, as mentioned already. I had heard of Poison The Well, heard a song or four from Converge, but I cannot say that I have heard anything from those other bands you posted, but I liked pretty much each of those songs too, especially found myself drawn to Converge, I really liked that imperfect, raw and aggressive sound in that one song posted.

Oh, and M.I.A....

I thought the music was pretty strange, didn't hate it though. I might look more in to her stuff to find if I'd like more of it, certainly isn't typical.

I think a possibility with pop music too is that in general it's bought by a much younger crowd, and they simply don't want to know about or don't care about social issues in their music. If it's not Facebook or Twitter or something that matters to them, in general, they don't seem to want it in their music. I'm sure if politically-charged themes and world consciousness was what the masses wanted, the artistes would be told/encouraged to go in that direction, but kids just want music to dance to, they don't want really to have to think about it, and what the public wants, the public gets. Whatever sells, ya know?

Thank you for your contribution, I think your right on the money with pop music. Although the subgenres in pop change a lot faster, every decade or two (disco, new wave, R&B ect) instead of century, largely due to advancements in media and technology. I don't think pop music will fade away until we evolve into some higher form of species. So there is probably a century or two more to go before we hit peak pop. Rock is probably toast though.

So...

Classical
Jazz
Country
Rock
Metal
Punk
Rap/hip hop
Parts of EDM
Disco (Part of pop)
and waiting on Prog rock

Here is another.

Industrial music:

Starts in the UK in the late 70's but doesn't really begin its ascent until the mid 80's with the popularity of band like Ministry & Skinny Puppy, we hit peak industrial sometime in the early 90's, perhaps 1994, the big commercial spike of NIN, FLA ect, where after that it begins a quick decent back down into a small underground niche.

Pretentious Throbbing Gristleheads like myself don't even consider bands like NIN to be industrial music, so maybe you're right on that one if we're going with what's ripping the charts a new one.

However, on folk music, I think that it's too vague of a term to really have a beginning or end. Americana folk music is going to be vastly different from Vietnamese folk music. In a way, you could say that most artists who are clearly passionate about their music make folk music since they are a product of their time whether they like it or not.

Even if you don't take such a liberal definition with folk music, a lot of the alternative music (lol at the genre name btw) have very prominent folk roots from what I've heard (even if the ringleaders suck some serious ass).

Came here to say this.
NIN isn't even the worst offender.
When I say Industrial and people think 'Rammstein', that's what really hurts.

Jesus Christ. What did you have to gain by reminding me of that monstrosity? You must hate me.

Nin is still some pretty industrial rock i think

Sharing lessens my pain.
Sorry.

Well I guess you're not that pretentious then, are you?

Why are they not

They suck and they have a pseudo pretension about them (not like the REAL pretension of the greats like SPK and Cabaret Voltaire).

Yes I think your right on the money on that one, folk music is probably the hardest to map out, because it's based on cultural nationalities.

I forgot that someone had mapped out the contemporary folk music of the 60's, but despite that, traditional American folk music probably peaked sometime in the 19th century.

I was thinking about that with Irish folk music. Would it's peak have been sometime in the middle ages onward, when minstrels were going around and playing it, or when it became a recording phenomenon with bands like the Clancy Brothers and Wolf Tones?

As for industrial music, yeah another trend I've noticed is that when a music genre hits its peak, is when it really begins to suck (ie punk: Green Day) that being said I much prefer NIN over Throbbing Gristle :yikes:

Dang, I was kinda hoping for an actual, not biased reason

I guess as resident Paddy I'll take this on. I'll report back. Just be aware that I will need an expense account: this will involve a LOT of going to Irish trad gigs, ceilis, fleadhs, fairs etc and you just cannot go there and not drink pint after pint of Guinness. They throw you out of the country for rudeness like that!
Maybe you forgot who you were talking to? ;)

You guys don't have better beer than Guinness out there? It's probably way better closer to the source than the bottles we drink come to think of it.

Nah it still industrial elements, I just hesitate to call them that because their music such a watered down version of the genre. I'd call it pop or alt rock before I'd think about calling it industrial.

careful runnning into this guy with the thousand foot edge

We need pop like AC/DC back in the charts, not this Taylor Swift nonsense. All of her music sounds the same!