Alice Cooper or Marylin Manson
 

Okay, I'm working on my soon to be member's journal and I'm thinking about the uproar over Marilyn Manson from some years back. I'm also old enough to remember that parents weren't all that crazy about Alice Cooper in his heyday either.


So I guess I'm asking who do you think was more shocking, Alice Cooper or Marilyn Manson?

more shocking? Manson. better? Alice Cooper.

Alice Cooper by far. Better and more shocking. We’re talking like 20 years earlier.

The correct answer: ICP.

I guess you would have to say that anything Manson did was, or could have been, copied from Cooper, so since Alice was the original of the two, Alice all the way.

Yeah, I think Cooper was both better and more shocking also. I'm of the age that remembers when Alice Cooper was a big deal and people were genuinely shocked at his act which featured a live boa constrictor and various stage shows that featured a mock execution and various modes of mock torture. I thought about starting a thread because of the outrage over Marilyn Manson by probably the same people who once grooved to Cooper. I thought it pretty interesting as to how soon people forget.

From the perspective of shock value against the current culture AC Vs ICP is more interesting.

Manson. Hands down. No competition. If you disagree you should ****ing kill yourself.

**** ICP.

I don't know but I think Marilyn Manson is a cool guy.

More men should wear make up imo.

The people who were actually there at Alice Cooper shows as stoned kids in the ‘70s are still probably pretty cool. The people who maybe just heard him on the radio or at a party, yeah.

Honestly yes, and I'm not just putting forward my own random choice. Alice Cooper was clearly huge for his time, but Marilyn Manson had a very limited time period when that sort of quasi-metal was valid and after that he was basically irrelevant and didn't have the creativity to keep up with the times. But ICP took everything Cooper did and made it into a movement using a personality that even Cooper arguably never even reached.

Granted, ICP had their own due-by-date as far as the mainstream was concerned, but had a basic quality and ability to evolve that kept them going for a far longer period than Manson or even Cooper, and has continued to be relevant to a far larger contingent than either other artist could ever hope to cope with. So I'd say that as far as cheesy shock artists are concerned, ICP wins kinda by a mile. And yeah I'm even including GWAR.

GWAR never got big enough to count, sadly.

yeah but that's all totally irrelevant. the question was who was more shocking, not who was more relevant or who was bigger. sure, alice cooper did it for longer. but during his initial rise Marilyn Manson was ****ing nuts.

edit - i hope nobody read this pre-edit, shocking typos.

True, but they had their moments. GWAR's We Kill Everything is underrated by metalheads just cause it isn't really metal. It's filthy as **** and "****in' an Animal" is one of the most hilariously filthy songs of all-time.

oh, and yeah GWAR are totally awesome.

@Trollheart

Honestly I don't think they ever really had enough of their own sound to really rise above the novelty of their live show. They're fun as ****, but as a band they were never more than decent for the most part. Oderus was really the most unique thing about them as a band.

Actually, he really wasn’t.

.

yeah but the stage show was great. it's people who talk about G.G Allin. he was okay at best, but he made the most of it by being a goddamn lunatic.

convincing argument

Honestly, ICP may have been more shocking but it seems like Manson received a lot more outrage comparatively speaking as did Cooper, who was a lot more bizarre as the years went on. Late during his reign he would do photo ops at golf courses with some pretty square people. I thought I remembered a picture at a golf course with Bing Crosby but I could be totally wrong on that.


I think GWAR is pretty awesome too. I've seen them do some hilarious things on YouTube.

I thought of them entirely as a live phenomenon so I was happily surprised that they could grind out some good metal riffs. I felt the same way about the Murder Junkies when I saw GG Allin. Not metal but I was like damn, they’re a solid ****ing band.

Schools were far more concerned about Juggalos. When teachers see ICP scrawled on a notebook it still incites terror.

As far as shocking to the mainstream then I'd give it to Cooper easily simply cause in the 70s no one had done that **** (as far as I know), but I never really remembered Manson or ICP ever having any serious difference in impact past a couple albums that entered the mainstream consciousness at the right time. If Manson did it was probably cause he was bigger when Columbine hit. Otherwise he was just as flash in the pan. ICP had a seriously underrated evolution as artists that changed continually for over a decade that never sat still and always pushed forward.

yeah that's not true. i can't speak for every school but i know at mine the kids who wore ICP t-shirts were the same ones that everybody made fun of. it's more of a meme now than anything else.

i think appeal of ICP to a lot of kids is that they're seen as misfits and losers and it gives them an in to make some friends and meet some likeminded people. hence why 90% of the Juggalos i've met have been losers.

just because someone did it first doesn't mean they did it better. it's hard to contrast the two i suppose, because of how times have changed.

Granted, this was at the end right before Oderus died, but when I saw GWAR live they came across as a high quality live band but not much more besides their highly fun live show, whereas ICP, also well into their musical decline, were a revelation as a live band for their integration of highly fun and energetic music (even the new songs) and charismatic theatrics of mass destruction. I'd easily say that ICP, at least as of the late 00s were by far the better band live, and easily the best live act I've ever seen. I enjoyed GWAR live, but I barely remember the first time I saw ICP live because I was so gone on how fun it was that I couldn't be bothered to remember. Seriously, Faygo sounds like such a dumb gimmick, but it was the best thing ever to get covered in it and be soaked in soda for an hour while jumping up and down in the middle of the crowd. It's a physical connection between the energy of the group and the energy of the crowd that can't be underestimated.

God you’re a dick.

god has nothing to do with this.

TBH you were barely born before ICP was a thing in schoolyards.

That sounds awesome.

right. so essentially your opinion on this is equivalent to parents going crazy over Kiss in the 80s.

Actually by the 80's Kiss was pretty much taken as a joke. The year I worked at a used record store (1981), you couldn't even sell a Kiss album in the dollar bin.

Even in the seventies, I think the only things parents were concerned about would be Kiss fans setting themselves on fire doing Gene Simmons' famous stunt. One kid tried that in my High School English Class and singed his eyebrows off :laughing:

It really was. Felt like a party. Granted, the lame venue didn't let GWAR use their full arsenal of crazy **** they shoot at you, but the same with ICP. From what I hear ICP at The Gathering is an absolute spectacle not to be missed that is worthy of a climax to a days long festival. I'd honestly go to The Gathering at a moment's notice if only to people watch and see what ICP do at the end. Whatever the case, ICP were easily the more dramatic and charismatic, whereas GWAR relied much more on visual spectacle rather than actual performance.

We're talking about the impact of shock artists, which is inevitably tied to time period. Were you there to see the impact of Alice Cooper? No. Neither was I. So neither of us can truly judge but by hindsight, so judging the cultural impact of ICP when you were still sucking on your mom's tits is kind of impossible. By the time you were a thing ICP were a meme, but that says absolutely nothing of when they hit the mainstream.

KISS were so so so GREAT live, I don’t care what anyone says. They made history every night.

lol

ICP was an embarrassing phase kids went through just like being a goth or any other popular teenage trend. sure, they had a cultural impact. but it's still hilarious in retrospect and doesn't change what i said about why people gravitate towards the group.

For many it’s more than a phase.

“Down with the Clown till I’m Dead in the Ground”

Clearly. I'm never gonna pretend that ICP were ever not goofy, but I'd question whether or not Alice Cooper was the same at the time before he was decided to be legit by... whoever. Shock rock will always be embarrassing to the generation after, cause it's always goofy and dumb. Even Alice Cooper. After that it's only relevant by the quality of the music, which as of 2017 is all we can really judge Alice Cooper, Marilyn Manson, GG Allin, or ICP for. And I'd say that ICP definitely get the pass as artists who deserve more than the fanbase that they got. Even if they earned that fanbase by being twats who courted that fanbase.

and that's why they're a meme

Fixed
What?
Agreed
I doubt that, unless it was with his corpse. Crosby died in 1977.

I'm not familiar with Manson.