Musical Culture Appropriation?

Terrapin_Station · 08-29-2021, 08:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Frownland

Because I said so, duh.

Yeah, well that sounds really practically workable.

**Frownland** · 08-29-2021, 08:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Yeah, well that sounds really practically workable.

Fund around and find out.

Neapolitan · 08-29-2021, 10:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Trollheart

Does anyone else have problems with, or examples of, this sort of thing?

This is such a weird topic coming from a guy who says he hates 1. (Irish) "Gypsies," 2. the English, and 3. American conservatives / Trump voters (which btw includes African-American and Cuban conservatives) - listed in no particular order of intensity for vehement disdain.

I have an example though not so musically ... So do you find it offensive the Leprechaun being culturally appropriated by an American college football team? Do you find the image of the Leprechaun itself offensive? Are you afraid if you fall asleep on the beach a Leprechaun will drag you into the sea? ... perhaps you could be saved by a selkie.

Terrapin_Station · 08-29-2021, 10:52 AM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

don't be so obtuse

you know how influence works

If you're just saying "influenced by," that's fine, but then what's the difference that you're positing?

jadis · 08-29-2021, 11:08 AM

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a guy who says he hates 1. (Irish) "Gypsies

lol this makes a lot of sense from the way he talks about the pandemic. scratch a middle of the road liberal and you'll find a eugenicist

Mucha na Dziko · 08-29-2021, 05:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Trollheart

Today I heard "Old Man River" and could easily tell it was not a black guy singing. Every other time I've heard that it's been black singers, whether it's Paul Robeson or Louis Armstrong or whoever. This time it was Sinatra. Now, I know it was written by a white man (Oscar Hammerstein) but to me there is just something disingenuous, almost grotesque about a rich white guy singing about how tough it is to be a slave. I just felt, well, creeped out by his rendition, almost as if it was an insult. I kind of wonder if it's okay for white men to sing songs about the race they've historically oppressed, in the voice of the ones they've oppressed, as if it's, I don't know, adding salt to the wounds?

Also, when you think of it, the fact that Sinatra sung it might've brought the song to a wider audience, and influence the thinking/feeling of people more people (even in a subconscious manner).
Also, as you pointed out the song was actually written by a white man. You could look for some sort of cultural appropriation rather here, than with Sinatra.
But really – isn't t rather a sign of good will or sensibility of the author/performer?

[Maybe you just felt creeped out by the rendition because it was bad?

]

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Originally Posted by Trollheart

Sort of like maybe a German singing about how tough it was for the Jews under Hitler, or something like that?

Would you see a problem with that?
I wouldn't. Simply because don't really see nationalities in people (sure, there are some cultural deferences, but nothing to not be able to overcome), rather the person itself.

If some Hans Jurgen wanted to sing a song about the holocaust (not likely to happen, I'm not sure I've ever heard a pop song about the holocaust, but let's say there'd be one), I'd rather see it as a sign of that individuals grief, emotions, sensibility, etc. It's Hans singing about the WW2, and not a German singing about it. The same might apply here to Sinatra.

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Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yeah, as usual I'm probably reading too much into it and taking it too seriously, but I feel certain songs - at least, certain subjects in lyrics - should be only performed by those who can identify with them. Like, it's their music, about their people, and we don't have a right to be appropriating that.

Then I guess those subjects would have to be written down somewhere. It's not that easy to predict what people will find disturbing.

The Beatles (and many other British groups) often used Indian instruments on their records. Should they? India had been a British colony for a long time.
Is this acceptable or not?

Or is a man singing about women's rights someone who commits appropriation of a subject?

You know where I'm getting at?

Also, today's German people are not responsible for their grandfathers' and grangrandfathers' actions. Just like Sinatra is not responsible for slavery, nor am I or you responsible for the fact that women didn't have the right to vote until 70-80 years ago.

Mucha na Dziko · 08-29-2021, 06:00 PM

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Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

I think "Cultural appropriation" is deeply flawed:
It promotes thinking in racial/tribal terms, where we're making just the same sorts of reasoning errors that fuel prejudices such as racism and sexism in the first place.

1up

I'd also add to the racial/tribal enumeration "national"

Mucha na Dziko · 08-29-2021, 06:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Frownland

Imagine that a homeless street performer in a third world country plays a song that a popular artist records on their cell phone while on vacation and takes into the studio. They use millions of dollars of funding to bring in great performers, arrangers, producers, and marketers that popularize the sound. When those campaigns work and make a lot of money, it can drive some crumbs of attention to the original artist once the sound is popularized, but it's nowhere near the level that they'd receive if they had backing that could afford to fail.

This isn't the same thing.
This is actually "using someone" or someone's art to make yourself rich. It has nothing to do with cultural appropriation.

**Frownland** · 08-29-2021, 06:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Mucha na Dziko

It's not that easy to predict what people will find disturbing.

That's probably why it's better to address existing complaints instead of inventing future ones, right?

I glossed over the Sinatra discussion so not sure if it's been brought up, but an important note is that his version was performed the a NAACP event. If I were him I might've adapted the lyrics or introduced it along the lines of it being a shared struggle to account for him taking on a black man's perspective or something but I wouldn't call that an egregious case.

50s exotica is a better example of cultural appropriation since a good deal of it creates an alien version of what white people imagine the music of a country sounds like. That occasionally took over the public perception of what those regional musics sounded like, closing many nonwesternized traditions out of the spotlight.

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Originally Posted by Mucha na Dziko

This isn't the same thing.
This is actually "using someone" or someone's art to make yourself rich. It has nothing to do with cultural appropriation.

It's an analogy that attempts to individualize a pretty dispersed scenario, it's not going to be 1:1.

Terrapin_Station · 08-30-2021, 05:59 AM

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Originally Posted by Frownland

. . . taking on a black man's perspective . . .

Which black man's perspective, though? It's not as if they all have the same perspective by virtue of being black, lol. That's very transparently just the same sort of thinking error that fuels racism in the first place.