jwb

So you saying we're rich not cause of industrialization but cause of imperialism is incorrect. The latest iteration of imperialism went hand in hand with industrialization and capitalism. It's not just domination that made us this rich... Its domination over a global capitalist system which produces way more wealth than previous empires every enjoyed.

jwb

I thought you said it was down to geography???

Either way, without industrialization we wouldn't be this rich. Empire or not.

jwb

Who exactly suggests that? I thought you were referencing Guns Germs and Steel.

That theory sounds suspect to me since modern day European domination is something that happened in the last 500 years. Previous to that the Islamic world, China, the Mongols etc were all superior at warfare to their European counter parts.

Either way, if you are going to say xyz factor is what gave Europe the head start on industrialization that doesn't at all detract from the fact that industrialization made us rich.

jwb

Much richer when? and by what standard? They were never anywhere near as rich as we are today.

Slave labor goes way back. The egyptians had slaves. What they didn't have was running water and electricity.

jwb

Many of the countries that are poor today were former Empires at one point. Ironically enough, the richest nation in the world was also a former colony.

jwb

How did the geographic barriers determine that? Presumably the geographic barriers of Europe have remained constant for as long as civilization has existed. Why only so recently did they lead to such global domination by Europe?

jwb

... which would have been true for the last 10,000 years as well

so why only recently did that result in global european domination?

jwb

They knew about the old world. They knew about the Islamic world which for a time was much more powerful than they were. They knew about the Mongols who had the most expansive empire of all time. They knew about the Chinese who were also much richer and more powerful than the west not too long ago.

jwb

That's possible... I have to admit to me it's still an open question since I don't have a detailed enough understanding of the history involved... I haven't read Guns Germs and Steel but what you're describing sounds similar to what I understand is proposed in that book. I know there are also people who criticize his theory but like I said I'm not that well versed in the specifics.

It seems like any way you slice it though you still have to admit that industrialization is what actually allows for our modern lifestyle. Maybe European colonialism predates and helped create the conditions for Europe specifically to lead the way in industrialization, but domination alone never would've produced this kind of wealth. The industrial revolution started in the 1700s. Yes Europe was rich then... Compared to other places at the time. But nowhere near the kind of wealth that defines our modern lifestyle.

We were talking about how even the homeless in this country can find food. That certainly wasn't as true in the 1700s and it still isn't true in most of the world today. Or how infant mortality dropped drastically. Or how electricity, running water, properly constructed shelter, transportation, and even communications devices like cell phones are pretty much taken for granted in the first world. All of that is very recent. Not at all the normal conditions humans have historically lived under. And not at all possible without said innovations in science, engineering and the industrialized production of goods.

Raime

I just want to say, **** you to the person putting "The Media Lies" on every ****ing stop sign in my area. It's surface level woke stoner infowars bull****, and I'm sick of these people thinking they know how the world works, and that everything is a conspiracy. I just want to see them break down knowing that chaos is a part of life, and there isn't always a reason for every bad thing that happens. You aren't any smarter than the average person, if anything, you're pretty god damn dim.

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