sorry for double posting but i just need to add 2 cents to this.

the other big factor that a lot of 'educated' people mistake is that the job is granted based on ability over attitude. you can train a monkey to perform surgery, but a company needs someone who can work along with the rest of its staff and in line with the corporate policies and procedures, especially if it's a specialized position. attitude and behavior go a LONG way and just fronting large because you have a degree and nothing else has the kind of reek that any competent HR person can smell from outside the building.

True, and I do agree that there are personality qualities that do go a long way... but it's not a matter of one or the other when it comes to career fields that require specific knowledge and experience. A great personality can walk into an interview all day long but if that person has no knowledge or experience regarding the job, I don't think a winning personality is going to matter.
Not saying it doesn't matter at all... I'm just saying it's not the prerequisite. If anything, an employer can only really objectively judge a potential employee by what's on paper. The rest becomes apparent after the employer has already taken a chance and hired that person.

I haven't seen anybody post anything that would lead me to believe they have misconceptions about just walking out and getting any job they want. So, I'm not sure why you get that feeling.

You're right, it definitely goes both ways. A degree isn't a gateway to any job in the world. However, from my discussions with faculty, recruiters, HR staff, and others- just by showing that you can successfully go through the grind of four years of college and obtain a bachelor's (or higher) puts you in a more positive light than those who did not. That's not to say that if you get an Art degree, you're going to get any job you want in the Crop Advising field... But I don't think that really needs to be said, because nobody here has shown that they are that misguided about their options after their degree.

If this is directed at me, I never said I had "absolutely no idea" what I want to do in life... That's stretching my words. I do know that I want to get out in the field of business, and, hopefully, specifically for a tech firm. So, you can see why I would, well, you know, umm... Spend time and money getting degrees in business and technology, learning specifically about my future career path. Whether that be a software firm, Boeing, an insurance company, Chevron- I don't ****ing know. That is the big mystery that still exists, and can only be solved by going out there and experiencing it first hand after college.

agreed, it's definitely a combination of both elements, just that it's one of those things that doesn't get taught much in class. although the employer doesn't really need to take a chance and hire someone to know what they're really like, that's the whole point of multiple interviews and a worthwhile HR staff.

then again i work in call centers and normally deal with jobs that have less specific demands and therefore higher competition. but it's normally the industry where most people fresh out of school get their first taste of actually working for a living, and generally speaking uni grads are the biggest headaches.

It was a statement about people's general propensity for assuming that any degree is better than no degree. While compared to an ex McDonald's employee applicant, sure.. it's better. But the point I was trying to make is that for a real career that actually requires real knowledge and not some arbitrary English degree for a job that requires you to know more than how to communicate your own language effectively, it's actually important to have knowledge of your field. In degree form, that's great. Most of the time it's required. But not some random degree that has nothing to do with anything.

So far, I'm quite sure that it's been argued about during this entire thread... But I could be wrong.. I have been visiting the Recreational Drug Thread. People like us... totally crazy. Outcasts. Insane people.

Who are you comparing the degree holding person to? A convicted felon McDonald's employee? Some random guy with no work experience and who dropped out in the 3rd grade? Or a multitude of other applicants who also think, like you, that all you need is an arbitrary degree to stand out from the rest of the crowd? What, you think you'll be the only applicant who has an arbitrary degree and all the other applicants are just regular Joes with nothing beyond a highschool degree and a winning personality?

Think in reality for a second. You're not going to ever be lucky enough to go into a job interview with a one-up on everyone who's already applied just because you have a degree. If you thought that, you're either applying at Burger King or you think you're the only guy to ever go through college. Now, I know you said you know that you have to have a degree that's relevant. Which is true. But if you knew that, you wouldn't have even brought up having a degree as some sort proof of being able to handle college for 4 years as some sort of qualification for being hired. This pretty much tells me that you think the piece of paper itself is what's valuable in principle... which I totally disagree with and I think that's pretty obvious with what I typed above.

Well, I have a BA in English. I'm using it to be a smug ****. That and I'm going back to school.

I used to share your view, Sam. I wanted so badly to break free of Academia, to get a real 9-5 where I didn't bring anything home at night. When I was done, I was done.

Then I got out.

School loans may be a vampirism that Bram Stoker never realized. But if there's one sour reality that's waiting at the gates much sooner than loan payments, its that the real world doesn't give a **** about your intelligence, your drive, your ideas, or your opinion.

The real world is filled with soon to retire baby boomers, they failed to live up the the greatest generation and they hate their lives and their marriages. They grew up in the 60's and 70's and the world was supposed to all change in their wide-eyed revolution. But nothing changed except that the 2nd world collapsed.

They're done in 10 years or less. What they don't want is some miserable upstart with a sac full of promise coming in and asking them to skip the black coffee in favor of going to price upgrades for the lobby, or the software, or the way we process customer requests.

College may be bull ****, I won't disagree, but its some good experience if you're not being spoon-fed. Enjoy the hell out of it while you can.

i never really understood this sentiment. mainly because the majority of people i've heard echoing it finish school then try starting their lives like they're debtless yuppies. new car, new house, new 'mature' social life - like a real adult. only, they started accumulating more debt before even starting to pay off the educational one or learning to live off the budget whatever job they land provides, as opposed to rationing the student loan to make sure you have beer every weekend.

the 'trick' is to keep living like you did as a student until you can actually afford to stop doing so.

which leads to - sleeping on the floor is honestly awesome.

i've only read the first post in this thread, but i would like to reply to it my simply reminding everyone that education has value in and of itself. it's not just an obstacle you have to overcome on the way towards something bigger and better. there are far more important things in life than economic concerns.

i spent 8 years in uni, and i came out of it with three degrees (by all rights, i'm dr. noise). i'm not using my skills at the moment. i'm working a menial job for mediocre pay. and still i owe $45,000 in student loans. but i'm very glad i went through with my plans to get a PhD.

even just the exercise of researching and writing a 400-page document was immensely educational. and i'm now one of the leading experts in my (admittedly narrow) field of study. hell, last fall i was dragged half-way around the world to be the featured speaker at a study conference on the subject. that's money well spent of you ask me :)

i have no regrets, and would never discourage someone from attending university.

Well you can count me out of that club. I own nothing. I rent, I ride the bus, and I went to one of the cheaper schools in the area. The problem is, I got a job in the non-profit field and currently there isn't a way to move up or out.

At a larger company I'd have been promoted but they ran out of slots. In a better economy I'd have taken my skill set and gone for greener pastures but theres no where to go.

It also has quite a bit to do with location. The rent around here is confiscatory, but as I say, finding jobs is hell anywhere, and I can't move to a cheaper place on a NP salary and hold out for hope that somethign turns up.

How does knowing that a series can only converge if any sum of the series has a limit of 0 (not sure how it should sound in english, sorry) going to help me pursue my career as a programmer ? this is just a moderate example of the things we're required to "learn" through the "education" process.

What value is there in education as it is right now? in half the time i spent in school i learned and got to making enough money to support myself and contribute to my family and I trained and studied more subjects than current education even dreams about.

I really don't consider going to school time well spent.

i hear your pain and wasn't trying to single you out. it's not an easy thing to overcome but it WILL pay off in the end. maybe not with a mansion and an underground garage but getting through a life challenge like this can't not have a lasting effect on your personal character.

i also graduted in 2000 with a bunch of software and IT papers under my belt. you remember what happened to the ultra hot IT industry 10 years ago?... it was awesome... and for those too young to remember - by awesome i mean completely imploding on the foolish excess that had been dumped into it throughout the 90s. when i started school everyone was pushing IT and celebrating anything associated with a computer, by the time i finished 3 years later it was all about being a plumber.

most people suck it up and move on, learn from the experiences and grow as a person. but there are some who seemingly refuse to accept that doors won't ever be flying open for their piece of sheepskin, and it's their debts that my tax money now pays for. awesome. jerks.

I figure I'd let you all know I'm going to be an English Ed major with a minor in Spanish.
I might change the Spanish to a major as well instead.
That is all.

First of all Pets.com on paper looked totally solid. Secondly, are you a plumber now? I'm actually going back to be a Teacher which in high school and college you couldn't have bribed me to do. Life's funny like that.

you're sounding like a friend of mine who took a bunch of lab tech courses then said F it all and took education and is teaching high school now.

and no, not a plumber, i was actually one of the two 'lucky' ones in my class and got to find out first hand the hell of career software development. i don't doubt ANY of the claims in the overworked, underpaid, under-appreciated, type articles and blogs that have popped up in recent years against EA and 2Kgames. it's a vicious industry.

i barely lasted 2 years before completely and thoroughly burning out. while i might not do much of anything specifically relating to those courses anymore at my super awesome call center job, those pieces of paper did help me get considered (and provided with) a call center job that doesn't actually deal with phones at all - so long as you don't mind starting your work 'day' at 11pm.

We're in agreement on random degrees not guaranteeing any job, we don't need to beat that anymore. However, by and large yes a degree is better than no degree. On a person-to-person basis that is not necessarily true... There will be high school dropouts who get hired for certain jobs over college grads, and there are certainly other factors that come into play. Looking at the big picture, though, yes, a degree can yield better, higher paying jobs. One big point I wanted to make is that I'm not going to get caught up in some anecdotal evidence of one person's cousin (or was it sister?) working at a Starbucks after college. That happens all the time, sure- but on average it is not the case. Statistics show that degrees lead to these higher positions, better salaries, etc, so obviously that little piece of paper deserves more credit than it is being given here.

I am thinking in reality. I would hedge my bets that if you had 50 qualified applicants with a high school diploma and 50 qualified applicants with a college degree applying for the same job - whether that be burger flipper, CEO of a fortune 500 company, coal mine worker, engineer, teacher - that it would be 70/30 hiring in favor of college degrees. All things being equal. Yes, I'm talking about a piece of paper- but it goes beyond just ink, paper, and a dean's signature... It's everything that it represents.

Just to go along with your side for a second- this does tend to create a fallacy, where students think that just showing up to class, making the minimum grades, and walking towards grabbing that diploma is going to guarantee them a job. It works both ways. "C's earn degrees" is not a great outlook, but one I see all the time. So, yes, tons of college students have coasted through with the wrong mindset, and then reality sinks in after graduation that they aren't ****. However, it's unfair to lump those guys in with the students who come in with a drive, a desire to learn and gain real experience that is going to work in their favor down the road... That same how you don't want to lump a convict Burger King employee in with a skilled worker with a GED.

I agree, largely, with what you're saying.
My main point was to put these square pegs we're talking about into square holes. In reality, if you're apply at any job that requires technical or field-based skills, it's obvious your chances of getting hired are higher with a degree... and people know this. This means that in these fields, you're likely to be competing against other applicants who hold degrees. We realistically don't even need to consider the applicant with a highschool education and no experience.
My point is that between the applicants with degrees, the ones who hold a degree that actually has something to do with the job they're applying for are better off than those who have degrees that don't.
I think we can both agree on that.

I'm just saying that realistically we can assume that you won't always be competing against no-contests unless you're applying for a labor job and not a field-specific career.

I apologize if my previous posts were misleading.

No apology necessary, good sir. I think it just took us a little while to realize we were seeing eye to eye. I definitely agree on all these points above, at least to some extent.

I think my main concern was the direction the thread turned somewhere in the middle- and it wasn't you, just in general- there was this ominous tone creeping in that "higher education is a waste of time" and that "nothing good comes from it". It's true for some, but not all.

:)

from reading this thread, i guess i'll share my views on this as well

at this moment i'm finishing up my second year of college, and quite honestly while some people i know think that i'm set for life once i graduate, i'm really just scared as hell right now. the reason is that in my almost 20 years of living, i've never held a legitmate job, and right now i'm just applying to places left and right, hoping someone could consider me for ANYTHING. it's something i'm doing, not just so i could earn my own money, but mostly it's for getting the experience of actually working, because i know that if i have none by graduation time, i'm pretty screwed when finding work. this goes back to what Pete and Freebase said, just because you have a degree in hand doesn't instantly qualify you for a job, experience is important for many things and just because you studied a textbook for 4 years doesn't necessarily translate into being able to put those studied skills to use. many employers know this, and they also know that there's kids who really just messed around for four years for that "college experience" and just walk in expecting to get paid in something that they're not realistically ready to do.

as for when you should go to college, i say it's better to go when you are really sure you know what you want to do, but there's still the possibility of switching majors when you find what you really want early or in the middle of your education (like i did:o:). yes, it can definately be harder going later in life than just after HS, but it's not impossible. i have two aunts who both went to college after doing jobs their whole lives that required less than a degree. they're both in their mid to late 30s with two children each, and they both still graduated with their respective degrees, one in Psychology, and the other from Medical School. before they did that they weren't too sure what they wanted to do with their lives, and instead of just going with the flow when it came time where most kids after high school went to college, they both worked various jobs over the years until they were sure what they really wanted to do. even if it did take longer for them to find what they really wanted to do, in the end they are both happy that they didn't just throw away money and time picking majors they didn't have much interest in. it's like mojopinuk said, in the longrun, taking the time, knowing what you want in life and not just diving into whatever right away can work out better both financially and in terms of building yourself a future.

and that other statement about the experience of learning in college being good in itself, i can understand that sentiment, and to a certain extent i agree. hell, i switched out of architecture, but i don't regret going through it at all, it taught me not **** around on my work and it helped me GREATLY organization-wise. still, when you need money to live, just saying "oh well, at least i learned alot" isn't gonna put food on your plate.

Another thing to consider is that degree or not, everyone in any workforce starts out with no experience. It's either a matter of shifting your goals to obtain that experience where you can, then using that experience for entry into something better later on... Or selling yourself successfully.
The thing to understand is that an employer has very little to go on when interviewing a prospective employee apart from what's on paper. The rest is risk. An employer mitigates this risk by using your documented work history to investigate your history as much as is legally allowed. If you have no documented work history, this isn't possible. But there are exceptions, especially if the job you're applying for is in desperate need of your expertise and you're able to sell yourself and your knowledge without having to prove anything on paper. These exceptions are a very good chance to get the job you want without previous experience as long as you know A LOT about the job from schooling or undocumented experience and are able to sell it to the employer and make him/her feel comfortable with the risk of hiring you over someone else.

While it's important to have the credentials, it's equally important to get an employer to put trust in you, as a person, to be able to get the job done.
I go to school with a guy who's in my field who got a very good job without even having a degree or experience on paper, but he's had individual experience doing the job just in daily life and interest. He was able to sell his skills simply by having an interview with the department head, based on knowledge.
It's what it all comes down to. Knowledge of the field. On paper, it's proof... but knowledge isn't only knowledge if it's on paper. I just think it's important to remember that.

Something to add to this, which (I believe) is relevant to all technical majors:

Industry experience becomes something of a catch-22 during your formative years as a professional. It is INSANELY difficult to obtain a job in a niche or smaller market without first working your way through other jobs which are relevant to the position at hand. Companies will not hire entry-level technical majors based solely upon years spent at school or prior (unrelated) work experience. And obtaining that relevant industry experience can be both difficult and time-consuming.

Personally I feel that I could get a job upon graduation without having to search very far, but it certainly wouldn't be in my intended field of study. Not to mention it will become very difficult to leave that field once I actually have the necessary experience to apply for other work. I've actually taken precautions to ensure that my school experience doesn't go to waste by spending an inordinate amount of time in a machine shop and earning certifications that would allow me to work a blue-collar job in the manufacturing industry without extensive training. This I believe would be helpful in the event of a layoff but I'm aware that I can't make the same career out of it.

But in the end, the old adage proves correct: it comes down to who you know, not what you know.

Without offering unnecessary personal information about my family, it was a situation where she simply reached a dead end. Being insanely intelligent and resourceful only helps people so far, when the job market is garbage the reality is that people turn to different avenues. That's not to say that people aren't better off with a degree, but just any degree defeats the purpose of going to college in the first place.