i hear your pain and wasn't trying to single you out. it's not an easy thing to overcome but it WILL pay off in the end. maybe not with a mansion and an underground garage but getting through a life challenge like this can't not have a lasting effect on your personal character.

i also graduted in 2000 with a bunch of software and IT papers under my belt. you remember what happened to the ultra hot IT industry 10 years ago?... it was awesome... and for those too young to remember - by awesome i mean completely imploding on the foolish excess that had been dumped into it throughout the 90s. when i started school everyone was pushing IT and celebrating anything associated with a computer, by the time i finished 3 years later it was all about being a plumber.

most people suck it up and move on, learn from the experiences and grow as a person. but there are some who seemingly refuse to accept that doors won't ever be flying open for their piece of sheepskin, and it's their debts that my tax money now pays for. awesome. jerks.

I figure I'd let you all know I'm going to be an English Ed major with a minor in Spanish.
I might change the Spanish to a major as well instead.
That is all.

First of all Pets.com on paper looked totally solid. Secondly, are you a plumber now? I'm actually going back to be a Teacher which in high school and college you couldn't have bribed me to do. Life's funny like that.

you're sounding like a friend of mine who took a bunch of lab tech courses then said F it all and took education and is teaching high school now.

and no, not a plumber, i was actually one of the two 'lucky' ones in my class and got to find out first hand the hell of career software development. i don't doubt ANY of the claims in the overworked, underpaid, under-appreciated, type articles and blogs that have popped up in recent years against EA and 2Kgames. it's a vicious industry.

i barely lasted 2 years before completely and thoroughly burning out. while i might not do much of anything specifically relating to those courses anymore at my super awesome call center job, those pieces of paper did help me get considered (and provided with) a call center job that doesn't actually deal with phones at all - so long as you don't mind starting your work 'day' at 11pm.

We're in agreement on random degrees not guaranteeing any job, we don't need to beat that anymore. However, by and large yes a degree is better than no degree. On a person-to-person basis that is not necessarily true... There will be high school dropouts who get hired for certain jobs over college grads, and there are certainly other factors that come into play. Looking at the big picture, though, yes, a degree can yield better, higher paying jobs. One big point I wanted to make is that I'm not going to get caught up in some anecdotal evidence of one person's cousin (or was it sister?) working at a Starbucks after college. That happens all the time, sure- but on average it is not the case. Statistics show that degrees lead to these higher positions, better salaries, etc, so obviously that little piece of paper deserves more credit than it is being given here.

I am thinking in reality. I would hedge my bets that if you had 50 qualified applicants with a high school diploma and 50 qualified applicants with a college degree applying for the same job - whether that be burger flipper, CEO of a fortune 500 company, coal mine worker, engineer, teacher - that it would be 70/30 hiring in favor of college degrees. All things being equal. Yes, I'm talking about a piece of paper- but it goes beyond just ink, paper, and a dean's signature... It's everything that it represents.

Just to go along with your side for a second- this does tend to create a fallacy, where students think that just showing up to class, making the minimum grades, and walking towards grabbing that diploma is going to guarantee them a job. It works both ways. "C's earn degrees" is not a great outlook, but one I see all the time. So, yes, tons of college students have coasted through with the wrong mindset, and then reality sinks in after graduation that they aren't ****. However, it's unfair to lump those guys in with the students who come in with a drive, a desire to learn and gain real experience that is going to work in their favor down the road... That same how you don't want to lump a convict Burger King employee in with a skilled worker with a GED.

I agree, largely, with what you're saying.
My main point was to put these square pegs we're talking about into square holes. In reality, if you're apply at any job that requires technical or field-based skills, it's obvious your chances of getting hired are higher with a degree... and people know this. This means that in these fields, you're likely to be competing against other applicants who hold degrees. We realistically don't even need to consider the applicant with a highschool education and no experience.
My point is that between the applicants with degrees, the ones who hold a degree that actually has something to do with the job they're applying for are better off than those who have degrees that don't.
I think we can both agree on that.

I'm just saying that realistically we can assume that you won't always be competing against no-contests unless you're applying for a labor job and not a field-specific career.

I apologize if my previous posts were misleading.

No apology necessary, good sir. I think it just took us a little while to realize we were seeing eye to eye. I definitely agree on all these points above, at least to some extent.

I think my main concern was the direction the thread turned somewhere in the middle- and it wasn't you, just in general- there was this ominous tone creeping in that "higher education is a waste of time" and that "nothing good comes from it". It's true for some, but not all.

:)

from reading this thread, i guess i'll share my views on this as well

at this moment i'm finishing up my second year of college, and quite honestly while some people i know think that i'm set for life once i graduate, i'm really just scared as hell right now. the reason is that in my almost 20 years of living, i've never held a legitmate job, and right now i'm just applying to places left and right, hoping someone could consider me for ANYTHING. it's something i'm doing, not just so i could earn my own money, but mostly it's for getting the experience of actually working, because i know that if i have none by graduation time, i'm pretty screwed when finding work. this goes back to what Pete and Freebase said, just because you have a degree in hand doesn't instantly qualify you for a job, experience is important for many things and just because you studied a textbook for 4 years doesn't necessarily translate into being able to put those studied skills to use. many employers know this, and they also know that there's kids who really just messed around for four years for that "college experience" and just walk in expecting to get paid in something that they're not realistically ready to do.

as for when you should go to college, i say it's better to go when you are really sure you know what you want to do, but there's still the possibility of switching majors when you find what you really want early or in the middle of your education (like i did:o:). yes, it can definately be harder going later in life than just after HS, but it's not impossible. i have two aunts who both went to college after doing jobs their whole lives that required less than a degree. they're both in their mid to late 30s with two children each, and they both still graduated with their respective degrees, one in Psychology, and the other from Medical School. before they did that they weren't too sure what they wanted to do with their lives, and instead of just going with the flow when it came time where most kids after high school went to college, they both worked various jobs over the years until they were sure what they really wanted to do. even if it did take longer for them to find what they really wanted to do, in the end they are both happy that they didn't just throw away money and time picking majors they didn't have much interest in. it's like mojopinuk said, in the longrun, taking the time, knowing what you want in life and not just diving into whatever right away can work out better both financially and in terms of building yourself a future.

and that other statement about the experience of learning in college being good in itself, i can understand that sentiment, and to a certain extent i agree. hell, i switched out of architecture, but i don't regret going through it at all, it taught me not **** around on my work and it helped me GREATLY organization-wise. still, when you need money to live, just saying "oh well, at least i learned alot" isn't gonna put food on your plate.

Another thing to consider is that degree or not, everyone in any workforce starts out with no experience. It's either a matter of shifting your goals to obtain that experience where you can, then using that experience for entry into something better later on... Or selling yourself successfully.
The thing to understand is that an employer has very little to go on when interviewing a prospective employee apart from what's on paper. The rest is risk. An employer mitigates this risk by using your documented work history to investigate your history as much as is legally allowed. If you have no documented work history, this isn't possible. But there are exceptions, especially if the job you're applying for is in desperate need of your expertise and you're able to sell yourself and your knowledge without having to prove anything on paper. These exceptions are a very good chance to get the job you want without previous experience as long as you know A LOT about the job from schooling or undocumented experience and are able to sell it to the employer and make him/her feel comfortable with the risk of hiring you over someone else.

While it's important to have the credentials, it's equally important to get an employer to put trust in you, as a person, to be able to get the job done.
I go to school with a guy who's in my field who got a very good job without even having a degree or experience on paper, but he's had individual experience doing the job just in daily life and interest. He was able to sell his skills simply by having an interview with the department head, based on knowledge.
It's what it all comes down to. Knowledge of the field. On paper, it's proof... but knowledge isn't only knowledge if it's on paper. I just think it's important to remember that.