We were in agreement (I think.)

They currently are NOT a form of art, even though they COULD be... but they definitely shouldn't be.

As for the whole being immersed in that world, I disagree with. Unless I'm playing a sports game, then maybe. But that's more due to the fact I wanted to grow up to be a footballer. I don't want to play COD and wish I was in a warzone, I don't wanna play GTA and wish I was able to shoot hoes.

With me I don't really make much distinction between art and entertainment and "kitsch" things that simply have an aesthetic and/or emotional appeal. I think these distinctions are a waste of time and mostly a good excuse people use to brag about how much more sophisticated their interests are compared to us primitive lowlifes.

Well I'm going to be a massive bore here and harp on about the Baldur's Gate games because if they aren't art, then I don't know what is. They're quite obviously artistic in the visual sense with great attention to detail, and in the musical sense (screenshots + music below). But they're also artistic in a holistic sense... the storyline, humour and atmosphere overall are quite compelling.

A lot of video games are quite aesthetically pleasing to me, especially older ones when limited graphics meant that developers had to be more inspired in creating attention grabbing visuals. And a lot of video game music is fantastic.

I think in both departments a video game can be artistic without a doubt. I think what people think games lack in artistic credibility is the stories, even when games do have very detailed, well made stories they tend to be on par with an action film or a shonen anime. Something that can be considered groundbreaking art is very rare. But I think if you look hard enough you will find games that fall into that category.

Stories are not a vital component (though they can enhance the experience), at least not backstories or cinematic cutscenes. The real "story" of a game is the gameplay itself, the experiences from playing the game and the events that unfold while playing it. Video games truly are stories that unfold differently every time you play them. The beginning and the end is already written by people who worked on the game, but there are different endings to choose from, and what happens in between is up to you, the player. To an extent anyway, you still have to follow rules created by the designer, though you can break some of them through cheats, glitches and hacks, creating a shift in power so to speak.

When you think about it, every time you get a game over that is the end of the story technically, and thus more of these tales end in tragedy than in prosperity. Deep huh?

Just want to show that I can be as pretentious about video games as am about everything else. :D

It can only help that the Baldur's Gate storylines are entrenched in the Forgotten Realms D&D background which had been around for a decade or two beforehand. A serious attempt at doing justice to an existing wealth of fiction and lore probably yields better results than a ham-fisted attempt to inject some token fantasy elements and lore into an RPG a month before release.

Regarding your game over comment, you might be interested to read about an old CRPG called Planescape Torment which is more heavily story-driven than usual. The premise is that you're the immortal protagonist known as the "Nameless One" (with the catch that you suffer partial amnesia every time you die) and you're attempting to find and assemble the pieces of your past and reclaim your mortality. It's unconventional in that dying not only doesn't result in game over (it's quite hard to get game over actually) but it actually helps in some cases as it can spark various memories from your past. And it's fairly thought-provoking when you encounter past incarnations of yourself with completely different personas, as well as people and potential companions who have had dealings with them. Effectively, others hold you responsible for all actions of all your incarnations, even if you have no memory of them.

That sounds awesome. I do wish there were more innovative, groundbreaking games like that but that isn't what hardcore gamers want, but I hate hardcore gamers so what can ya do.

I loved the story element in Majora's Mask and wish more games did something similar. It's one thing to read a backstory about how someone plans to take over/destroy the world but you can goof around forever and nothing bad happens, and something entirely different to actually get a real sense of impending doom and having consequences for lack of time management, that's one of the great things about RTS games but I wish more games from other genres would employ this concept. Raise the stakes and consequences for not performing specific tasks and not doing things on time.

Just to name a few more:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LhGjhRJ01d...V+Oblivion.jpg

http://lifeofhealey.files.wordpress....t-3-poster.jpg

http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-cont...ntasy_xiii.jpg

http://www.freegamesystems.info/images/bioshock-ps3.jpg

I was thinking of a 'Favourite art form thread?'

But since this is a music forum, and music is the most popular art form. I think it would be a tired and pointless exercise. :(

so you came up with one author who goes against the grammer-rules compared to millions of musicians?

all i was saying is music can be the most free-spirited type of art well besides visual-art but it's usually easier for someone to make music then art (depends on quality comparison)

What the **** are you on about?

I was simply pointing out an author who did exactly what you're describing. That's it. Is english a second language for you by any chance? Or are you just feeble-minded?